Dishwasher Help Needed

[Bobonli]

I'm hoping those with longer tenure as homeowners than I can help me sort through whether I'm getting BS'd by the appliance repair guys. I have an approx 4 year old Kitchenaid dishwasher that has been healthy up until about 2 months ago when it stopped drying the dishes. The dishes were clean but came out cold and wet. So we called the chain appliance store we bought from and they sent out a repairman. He said the water in our home was not hot enough to run the washer through its entire cycle and, since the water was too cool, the heating element to dry the dishes was turning itself off as a protective mechanism. Apparently it "would have to work too hard" to heat the cabinet, so it shut itself off. He opened up the circuit board, hit a reset button and left. The drying cycle worked for two days and then quit again.

Sidebar: I live in a 50's era house with no hot water heater. Water gets hot by passing through a circuit in the oil burner. We do indeed have limited hot water (it usually becomes a problem when all 4 people want to take showers back to back but we run the dishwasher at bedtime). What I don't understand: if the water is not hot enough.....why did it take 4 years to cause an issue, or is this just nonsense? My other appliances work fine, BTW.

Fast forward two weeks after the initial repair visit and now the washer doesn't even deliver water. The spray heads will not work because the pump (to pump water out) is broken, thereby telling the circuit board to withhold water. Repair guy insinuating that it's ALL related to the water temp.

Appreciate your thoughts and feedback. I've tried asking a plumber and he clammed up; doesn't want to get in the middle of an argument with the repair guys from a pretty big named appliance dealer in my part of NY.

[fastupslowdown]

i had something similar with a kitchen aide dishwasher. after 8 years i simply said good by kitchen aide and bought a miele. not that its a consolation but dishwashers are a relatively cheaper appliance. you might wind up spending more money on repairs. i'd go with sunk cost theory and move on.

my kitchen aide worked ok in the beginning but much happier with the miele. a few years ago i tried to save money when my subzero wine frig failed after over a decade of use and bought a kitchen aide unit. the thing wouldn't accommodate wine bottles. suffice it to say i'm no longer a fan of the company. i only grudgingly bought another kitchen aide refrigerator when the other alternatives weren't looking very appealing based on my situation. so far so good but if this unit fails before its expected to i'm done.

i used to have a link to the national association of home builders for the life expectancy of common home items but i just checked and the link is now dead. sorry i couldn't be of more help -mike g

[fastupslowdown]

https://www.interstatebrick.com/site...components.pdf

[thollandpe]

Babaloonie, dishwashers suck. There is no single appliance I loathe more, as I’ve replaced a dozen in my tenure as a homeowner.

Also, I’ve never used the dry cycle. I let them air dry. But it is very important to have hot water, if only to minimize the soap and fat sludge that eventually coats the nooks and crannies of these crappy appliances.

So I’d replace that indirect heater on your boiler, that’s an inefficient design at best, and at worst (like in summer when you run the boiler only to heat domestic water) it’s miserable.

If your basement can use some dehumidification, consider a heat pump water heater. The Stiebel Eltron is a beaut.

Or how about solar? If you have the roof exposure, and can find a contractor who knows how to do it, the economics of making hot water from sunlight can’t be beat.

And then run the faucet until hot water comes out before starting your shiny new dishwasher. If you don’t do that, the dishwasher has to heat that slug of cold water, regardless of what your water heater is. And run it every once in a while on sanitize/high temp to help dissolve the sludge. Good luck.

[Bobonli]

Thanks Todd.

Yes, my heating system in antiquated. Whole house is! I have an oldie time oil burner AND the exterior walls are not insulated!! We've pushed around the idea of a water heater since buying the house 6 years ago and now it looks like the dishwasher might be the final motivation to act on it. It's just odd that the problem is popping up now and, coupled with the pump failure, my spydee senses tell me the water temp is not so much the cause as the thing is just dead.

Repair guy comes Saturday with a pump. After that it's going to the curb because I'm already half way to the price of a new machine.

[j44ke]

I think you are getting 50% BS. I’d say it is likely that your dishwasher doesn’t actually know what the temperature of the water is and that’s why it is crapping it’s pants. There should be a heating element in the dishwasher that cranks the heat of the water above what the household service temp is. And that’s so the water vaporizes off the dishes and condenses on the walls of the dishwasher, runs down into the bottom and gets pumped out. You’ll hear the pump go like 10 or 15 minutes after the last rinse sound. If the pump is broken, you’ll have water in the bottom of the dishwasher. But if you’ve had bad temp control, your pump can fill with sludge and stop working, because high water temp keeps soap and fats from congealing and clears the pump.

Anyway, the dishwasher should make up the temp difference between its required operating temp and the household service with its own heater. If it isn’t heating, then either the electronic controller is bad, the heater is bad or the temperature sensor is bad. The temp sensor in a dishwasher is called a thermistor. It is basically a switch that reacts to temp. Based on what it is set up to do, it either allows or prevents something from happening. In your case, I assume it allows or prevents the drying cycle based on whether it “sees” the correct temp.

If he’s replacing the pump, before he starts working, ask him about the thermistor. You will already be paying for the pump work and the thermistor is usually in the same general area underneath the dishwasher, so it won’t be extra labor. He can pop one in while there.

The part of his explanation I don’t buy is the temp of your household service being too low. Okay maybe that is causing wear on the heating parts, but I am going to bet it is the simple doinky part that has gone bad. Ask about the thermistor.

This knowledge is courtesy of the plumber who fixed the dishwasher in our rental apartment 10 years ago. He came with the part, flipped the dishwasher on its back, switched it out and presto, fixed. Okay there were wires and hoses involved, but he claimed that was the weak link in most dishwashers and so he replaced that first and then went from there, no matter what any code said.

Good luck!

[davids]

Oh man. Dishwashers.

We had to replace one the moment we bought our (1999) house. It turns out that - just as we suspected - the water-damaged floorboards in the kitchen (that we had just refinished) were caused by the leaking DW! No biggie, it was going to go when we renovated anyways. So I bought a cheap Bosch from Best Buy because, y’know, it was the best price and fastest delivery.

Until the day it was supposed to arrive and didn’t. So lesson learned there: Don’t buy from a big box store.

A year passes and we renovate the kitchen. Another year passes and the new DW stops completing the full cycle. A two year old Bosch? This shouldn’t happen. Anyways, having learned my lesson I call the local high-end appliance store for service. It takes five visits to fix the thing – one to diagnose; one when the part (a new pump) arrives; one for a third-party plumber to re-route the drainage at the service guy’s recommendation; one to review all the work when the re-routing didn’t fix the problem; and one with the service manager to address his guy’s half-assed work. The total cost would have purchased most of a new DW... So lesson two: Service is expensive and hit-and-miss.

And guess what? A year later the DW starts having the same problem! We’ve learned to rinse our dishes, run the disposal, thoroughly clean the pump filter, each of which seems to help. At least for a while. But ultimately the thing will just not reliably complete its cycle. I am so frustrated. My wife is ready to cut bait and just trash this three-year-old Bosch.

Before we do it occurs to me to try one more thing. The DW manual makes a big deal about how the little plastic pump filter cover needs to "click" into place. Ours doesn’t, it just kind of snugs in there. So I go on-line and buy a new little plastic pump filter cover for $8.80. It arrives. I pull out the little plastic pump filter cover that’s in there. It’s a different part, missing the little tab to click in. It’s not broken, it’s wrong. I am sure that the guy from the high-end appliance shop popped it in there when he replaced the pump. Lesson three: Service guys are winging it.

I click in the new one.

s-l300.jpg

The machine is working perfectly now.

[rec head]

I agree that it sounds about 50% BS. I also agree that the dry cycle isn't needed. I just crack the door open after the machine is done to speed up the air drying process.

I have had to clean out the bottom of the DW a few times to get gunk out of the pump but it isn't hard.

[Dallas Tex]

If your dishwasher is 'smart' enough to turn off heat element during the wash cycle, why wouldn't it be smart enough to turn it back on during the dry cycle? Unless its a very high end unit, it may be better to just replace. Very easy to install.

[robin3mj]

Our ~4 year old dishwasher (builder's spec, came with the house) stopped drying dishes about 6-8 months ago, as well as started doing a worse job at actually cleaning them.
I fully replaced the heating coil which helped a bit, but then ended up replacing the d-mn thing with a Bosch. It cleans much better but still doesn't dry as well as I'd hoped.

Do you put lots of plastic in the d/w? Plastic dries far less easily than glass and ceramic. We have 3 small kids, so not a minor amount of our dishwasher is full of plastic plates, sippy cups, etc.

[marley]

Run the washer after dinner almost every day with 4 people :( Open before you go to bed, shake the rack with the plastic containers (typically on top) to remove the standing water and everything is dry in the morning.

They all suck.

[j44ke]

Thinking about this while out riding.

Some dishwashers have a heating element (a big hoop) in the bottom. Water fills the basin and the heating element turns on and heats it to temp. Once it gets to temp, the thermistor allows the rinse-dry to start. I don't think this arrangement requires the pump to fill the basin, just to run the rinse-dry cycle.

Some dishwashers heat the water using a thermoblock-type water heater ala some espresso machines. This requires the pump to move the water in the basin through the thermoblock to heat up the water. When the water gets to temp, then the thermistor lets the pump run the rinse-dry cycle. So I can see how a weak or non-functioning pump might cause the water to fail to heat properly in this arrangement.

Our Bosch has a thermo-block. I think most higher priced dishwashers do.

So the new pump might do it then.

Also a new dishwasher.

[Bobonli]

I am continually impressed by your fund of knowledge, Jorn!

I don't think there's a thermoblock. I don't see anything like that and it's not described in the owners manual. I think we fall into the first description. And that's the part that the repair person says the water is too cool so the heating element will not turn on.

It will rain all day Saturday which means I'll be stuck home and will be here when he comes, so I can cross examine him directly. I predict he replaces the pump, the machine runs for a couple of days and then poops out. Cut to me at a different appliance store buying a replacement (and calling plumber to get quote on a water heater).

[j44ke]

I am just one of those guys who hangs around while the repair guy is working. I offer them water or coffee. I ask questions and compliment the answers. I just try to show that I am interested in what they are doing. Which I am. If they are good repair guys, they usually like the conversation. No one is actually interested in what they do. They just want the XYZ fixed. If they aren't good, they get confused. Then I can ask leading questions like "What's the thermistor do during the rinse-dry cycle?" that can often help rattle something lose in their brains and help get the job done. But I also disappear periodically. No one likes a noodge.

[slwrnu]

This is a coincidence. I am sharing your pain. Here in Tyrol my DW has been rather temperamental for a while. Then, just before Christmas, when my daughters were about to arrive, it conked out. I love cooking for us all, and the odd visitor, but the corollary of that is I have been washing dishes and stuff during the holiday period for ages when I should be skiing. When the machine works I also do not use the drying cycle. As someone else mentioned, just open the door a bit and let the air circulate. It is free. Got a man coming in today zu anschauen (German for "have a look").

[Bob Ross]

They all suck.

^^^This. I have a modern Bosch that is more a dish wetter than a dish washer.

And when someone starts a thread about gas stoves, I'll chime in with that same "they all suck" comment. I just spent $600 to repair the oven igniter and control panel in an $800 appliance that was only two years old and whose oven had probably been used less than 15 times in its short lifespan. :::angryface:::

[froze]

^^^This. I have a modern Bosch that is more a dish wetter than a dish washer.

And when someone starts a thread about gas stoves, I'll chime in with that same "they all suck" comment. I just spent $600 to repair the oven igniter and control panel in an $800 appliance that was only two years old and whose oven had probably been used less than 15 times in its short lifespan. :::angryface:::

If you have the ultra quiet 42db ecosilence Bosch dishwasher, yup, it doesn't clean well, I have a theory that's the case due to trying to sell the unit as a quiet model they reduce the water pressure substantially to the point where it's virtually has no effect on cleaning the dishes...but it is very quiet! combine that lower spray pressure to a smaller motor and you have issues. My mom bought one of those and it didn't work good at all, I bought a "louder" Bosch and it works great and has done so for the last 3 years. Modern dishwashers don't have the power of the older ones, my moms 30 year old Kitchenaid that failed she NEVER had to pre rinse the food off, just stuck them in, then the built in disposal ate the food off and the dishes came out sparkling clean, but it was rather loud. Also the word on the street now is that Bosch has slipped dramatically in their quality control just in the last year or two! But why? is it because of new regulations? perhaps, regulations have changed how dishwashers run, which is good for the environment, but requires a little extra intervention by the owner, this means you have to rinse your plates off real well before putting them in...so how is that saving energy and natural resources, namely water, if you have to use a bunch of water to pre rinse? Regulation makers have no common sense. Remember when regulation rules said appliances have to be green? that's when all the issues began, smaller motors meant the had to work harder which meant the failed more frequently, and how exactly are we saving resources and energy if you have to replace 3 appliances in the same time period that a few years ago 1 would have lasted? Aren't we having to have factories build 3 times as many appliances? and that does use energy and resources.

I miss the days of common sense.

So as with most major appliances in today's world you should no longer be buying the middle to higher end products, they don't do anything better that the lower end ones do just with more options, and those quiet units are doing something to get the noise level down. In the 70's the average appliance life was 24 years, today it's 12 years, but personally I think the statistics about the 12 years is wrong, I think it's closer to 7 years!! I bought a brand new washer and dryer 3 years ago, a year after the warranty some bearing pulley went bad in the washer, $189 dollars later it worked; a few months later I noticed what appears to be oil stains on clothing, the seal is leaking around the motor housing putting some amount of oil into the water and onto the clothes; the dryer suffered a control panel failure, $389 dollars later we got a new panel; the refrigerator we bought at the same time, a fancy dutch door job, a year after the warranty ended the unit froze up, Samsung has this issue with EVERY SINGLE fridge they sell that has ice makers, the line freezes backs up to behind the rear plastic panel where the ice builds up which in turn stops the fans which shuts off the cooling, I now have to manually defrost my fridge every 3 months!! There is a class action lawsuit against Samsung but Samsung is fighting it all the way because the cost of the recall would be outrageous, and according to the repair man that came out he said there is no possible fix for it which means if Samsung loses they will be buying new fridges for everyone that has ice maker units. By the way, the washer and dryer were mid level Samsung units...hmmm is there a pattern going on here? Needless to say I will never buy another Samsung, and I heard LG is having a lot of issues to. Next time I buy an appliance I'm going to buy the extended warranty even though for years I didn't because I thought they were a ripoff, true back then but not true in today's world.

According to the repairman who is a authorized Samsung repairman as well as for several other brands, he said to stay away from Samsung, LG, Kitchenaid, Maytag, and one other I can't recall, but he said he has seen less service calls to Whirlpool, Frigidaire and Amana, he also said to stay away from the more complicated, ie more expensive appliances. He also said something else that most people don't even think about, but he said to use a very good surge protector that will handle an appliance, and it must have a steel box to prevent melting like plastic boxes can do, he liked the Tripplite Isobar so I got those for my appliances.

As far as possible cures for your dishwasher see this:
this video gets more complicated in the repair but it could be worth watching:
here is more: Bosch Dishwasher Not Cleaning - Repair Parts - RepairClinic.com
check to make sure that the drain line is installed correctly; Also if you are getting suds that won't go away you may have too much rinse aid being used, you would know this if you have to fill the rinse aid every 6 or so times, get it replaced.

[fastupslowdown]

^^^This. I have a modern Bosch that is more a dish wetter than a dish washer.

And when someone starts a thread about gas stoves, I'll chime in with that same "they all suck" comment. I just spent $600 to repair the oven igniter and control panel in an $800 appliance that was only two years old and whose oven had probably been used less than 15 times in its short lifespan. :::angryface:::

My miele is fantastic. bought the unit in 2012 so after 6.5 years I'd say i've fully tested it. functioning way better at this point than the kitchen aide architect unit the sponsor put in my apt. very quiet and dishes are always clean. the kitchen aide was quiet too but this takes it to a new level. almost went with a miele refrigerator but it cost more and i would have had to call in an electrician to move outlets. if the kitchen aide refrigerator fails prematurely i'll bit the bullet and go miele again. my mom has bosch appliances and i'm none too impressed

[froze]

My miele is fantastic. bought the unit in 2012 so after 6.5 years I'd say i've fully tested it. functioning way better at this point than the kitchen aide architect unit the sponsor put in my apt. very quiet and dishes are always clean. the kitchen aide was quiet too but this takes it to a new level. almost went with a miele refrigerator but it cost more and i would have had to call in an electrician to move outlets. if the kitchen aide refrigerator fails prematurely i'll bit the bullet and go miele again. my mom has bosch appliances and i'm none too impressed

I think with product brands one brand may excel in fridges (for example) and fail at all the other appliances, I've been discovering this! The days of going with all one brand in a kitchen is gone, you have to do your research, but be careful because the internet is full of crap, I still find to this day that Samsung makes the best refrigerators and it's not true as evidenced by the class action lawsuit: Looking for Updates on the Samsung Ice Maker Lawsuit? Here’s Everything We Know. Samsung Ice Maker Lawsuits | Freezing Up Problems | ClassAction.org and now there is a class action lawsuit with Samsung washers: Samsung washing machine lawsuit over exploding Samsung washers Samsung I believe is the worst manufacture on the planet!! I will never buy another Samsung product, even their much bragged about TV's have issues Consumer Complaints Spur Samsung TV Class Action Lawsuit Investigation Samsung has issues that goes through their entire line of crap, and people have complained that even when an issue occurs while under warranty Samsung drags their feet. Why this schit isn't getting huge public attention is anyone's guess.

Now that I got that off my chest, I went with Bosch dishwasher because at the time the model I got had the best reliability record, the same was true with the Bosch glass top stove, and so far in 3 years there's been zero problems, but I heard that Bosch fridges and wall ovens are not that great, yet Miele makes a great wall oven, while Amana and Whirlpool make the best fridges, and Speed Queen makes the best laundry machines. These things change over time as well, for 5 years or so a certain brand will be really good at one product then suddenly they start making junk! For some reason Toshiba for many many years has made the best tabletop microwave ovens, we had one that lasted 20 years in our house and another 15 years in my daughter's house; while GE makes the best over the range microwave. In today's world you really have to do your homework before buying an appliance and don't stick to all one brand, and Consumer Reports has not been very accurate since Ralph Nader left the organization, CR still says that Samsung is the best manufacturer for appliances yet they completely ignore all the class action lawsuits going on with them!!! Crazy, simply crazy. Your homework should include calling independent repair businesses and asking them who makes the most reliable product, while that's no guarantee they'll be 100% correct because you could buy a lemon, but if you call enough repair places and you get a consistent answer chances are it will be good. If you live in a small town and you don't have any local repair shops, you have a phone, find a couple in a large city nearest to you and call those. Most repair people will be honest because they feel the frustration that consumers feel because like the consumer they to have to buy appliances for their homes and they don't want issues either.

Sorry if I seem like I go on too far with this stuff but after spending $2,800 for a fridge, $1,800 for a washer and dryer and to have the problems I've had with the Samsung crap, and hear about other brands having reliability issues it gets very frustrating to spend money like that and have issues like we're having.

[Bobonli]

Sorry if I seem like I go on too far with this stuff but after spending $2,800 for a fridge, $1,800 for a washer and dryer and to have the problems I've had with the Samsung crap, and hear about other brands having reliability issues it gets very frustrating to spend money like that and have issues like we're having.

I think there's an element of planned obsolescence that manufacturers count on or design for. To use a cliche: Things aren't built like they used to. The problematic dishwasher I posted about replaced one that was in the house when we bought it. It had probably been there 20 years. It worked fine but sounded like a Dodge Viper when it ran and that was unacceptable with two small kids trying to sleep. Similarly, our stove had been in place 25 or more years and did it's job (except for an oven that never maintained temp) but we needed something more modern. I doubt I'll get 20 years out of any of my current appliances. I also think that there are so many circuit boards and chips in the current crop of appliances that they are overly complex. I don't really need a "Sticky Nacho platter" setting on the dishwasher control panel....I just want the damn plates clean! Dry would be helpful too.