Paragon Rockers

[zank]

I'm diggin' these. It looks like they brace the disk mount a little better than their sliders. Any thoughts, aside from the usual pros/cons of low mount disks and the long chainstay tabs?

P10_DS1030_1.jpg

[EricKeller]

I always like to see something I never would have thought of. I'd be interested in hearing how they work in practice

[edoz]

I like them, they look slick. I do wonder about possible slippage, since there's no set screw or anything holding the axle plate in place. The Black Cat swingers have an adjustment screw that keeps the plate from slipping forward, and without that screw in place they will slip a bit under lots of torque. I'll probably try them on my next mtn frame, I imagine Drew and Mark have thought all this stuff out. Drew also said they remove the need for the brace between stays on the brake side.

[zank]

Yeah, I was wondering about that too. I was just about to order some Black Cats when the Paragon newsletter introducing the Rockers hit my email. I'm going to go with the Black Cats on customer bikes for now and experiment with these on a bike for me.

[EricKeller]

Just doing the force balance in my head, there really isn't any reason to expect them to slip. It seems like the force from the chain and braking are both counterbalanced reasonably well by the front slot.

[edoz]

Just doing the force balance in my head, there really isn't any reason to expect them to slip. It seems like the force from the chain and braking are both counterbalanced reasonably well by the front slot.

Yeah, I see what you're saying now. That and Drew's explanation in his smoked out have me convinced. These are going on my fat bike.

[Dornbox]

I like everything but the tabs. I hate slotting chain stays when I can just miter them. Non the less, I may have to try these on my team's cross bikes just because they look lighter than the Black Cats...?

[Dornbox]

OK I really like that these don't mess with the BB drop either. .76 of a mm over 17.5mm of adjustment. Love em already!

[Archibald]

Looks like Mark improved the hardware already, that's good. My only real criticism is that they're heavy as hell. Not a big deal on a burly bike, but at 3/4 of a pound for the pair they're not going on any XC racers. I'd bet he puts them on a weight reduction plan soon.

[e.Gellie]

The Black Cats I have here are 323grams, or 0.7 of a pound. I think the extra weight is well worth it.

[Dornbox]

The Black Cats I have here are 323grams, or 0.7 of a pound. I think the extra weight is well worth it.

There's a reality regarding weight when it comes to any dropout with disc mounts. I bet that Mark's low mounts might even be a little more stout than his Rockers. As for Todd's BCs, I completely agree with you there. I use them on my 29ers and before Mark came out with his Rockers, I was going to put them on my CX bikes. Plus, I'm sure a well placed hole or two could lighten em up a little.... I'ma get two heavy pipe hitten brothers and a rusty drill bit, we gonna get all 80's BMX on em'!

[Archibald]

There's a reality to anything with disc mounts too. I bet that Marks low mounts might even be a little more stout than his Rotators. As for Todd's BCs, I completely agree with you there. I use them on my 29ers and before Mark came out with his Rotators, I was going to put them on my CX bikes. Plus, I'm sure a well placed hole or two could lighten em up a little.... I'ma get two heavy pipe hitten brothers and a rusty drill bit, we gonna get all 80's BMX on em'!

IIRC, Paragon's low mount 17-4 DO's weigh about 8-ozs with the d hanger. They're good, but a little whippy due to the length of the lower tang and the material being around ~.150" front to rear. The new rockers are ~.250". Add to that the .25" for the rocker DO that overlaps them and I just think they're overbuilt which is not a bad thing, just heavier than I think they need to be. Like I said, I'm betting he puts them on a weight reduction program. He's got the hard part done & the new Ti hardware is a good start & I think he'll carve a few more ozs out of them before it's all over. After messing with them, my suggestion would be to make the pivot structural, say by using a steel chainring bolt/nut for an off the shelf solution or a shoulder bolt and lose the upper slot & clamp bolt. Nobody does dropout's like Mark and he'll kill on these too.

[Dornbox]

my suggestion would be to make the pivot structural, say by using a steel chainring bolt/nut for an off the shelf solution or a shoulder bolt and lose the upper slot & clamp bolt.

You nailed it Don! That just sounds sexy! I think the look would be killer. Somebody incorporates the chainring bolts in their drops now... I think.... I could just have an overly visual imagination. -Chris

[vulture]

I'm sure they are nice but I think a frustrom cone knurled washer would be nice on the brake side. In my experience with swinger/rocker etc. dropouts, the braking forces far exceed the torque forces. I have designed and tested a couple styles myself and the occasional slip was from brakes not legs. IE: can you accelerate from 0 to 30 in one second? no, can you decelerate from 30 to 0 in one second? yes (before everybody gets their panties in a bunch, I know this is over simplified) My first concept had the pivot lower than the top ISO mounting hole DUH. but even so I have had very few issues. I am not a fan of the long dropouts, I don't like how they cantilever the chainstays. Do I think they are bad? No. I just don't like them. Some builders would like to have an all cromo version so they can brass braze the dropouts in. Some builders would also like to see post mounts , I'm not one of them. I could see using the aluminum part and making my own steel components to solve my imaginary problems with these dropouts.

[Chauncey Matthews]

[QUOTE=vulture;269072 In my experience with swinger/rocker etc. dropouts, the braking forces far exceed the torque forces. I have designed and tested a couple styles myself and the occasional slip was from brakes not legs. .[/QUOTE]

Doesn't the Rocker solve this problem by putting the caliper between the cs/ss?
I hear what your saying for the rest of it though- if I had my way I'd buy some of those sweet Vulture drops....too bad ya don't sell them!
Have you seen the Hunter version? Kinda skimpy, but cool.
new prototype drop-outs | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

[edoz]

Have you seen the Hunter version? Kinda skimpy, but cool.
new prototype drop-outs | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

I'm not sure how I feel about those, part of my worries about how thin the steel part is, and part of me thinks about how awesome they'd look on a bike.

[Archibald]

Doesn't the Rocker solve this problem by putting the caliper between the cs/ss?
I hear what your saying for the rest of it though- if I had my way I'd buy some of those sweet Vulture drops....too bad ya don't sell them!
Have you seen the Hunter version? Kinda skimpy, but cool.
new prototype drop-outs | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Oofda. That's what I'm talking about. The dropout is structural so the webbing between the stay locations is just fluff. I'd be tempted to add some beef there so the adjuster screw can double as location retention, but in the comments he says that the pic just shows a model and the production version will be beefier. Be interested in seeing these when they're finished. I like the comments on how when he sent the drawing to Mark for a quote, Mark sent him back a picture of his own rockers. That describes the bike biz perfectly.

[vulture]

Doesn't the Rocker solve this problem by putting the caliper between the cs/ss?
I hear what your saying for the rest of it though- if I had my way I'd buy some of those sweet Vulture drops....too bad ya don't sell them!
Have you seen the Hunter version? Kinda skimpy, but cool.
new prototype drop-outs | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

the front caliper mounting hole is in front of and parallel to the front fixing bolt slot. Maybe so maybe not. They have to arc to work, and brake force is hangin out there. It goes in circles around the axle doesn't matter where you put it. I bet they wont slip though, cuz the people behind them know what they are doing. Rick's look cool but some don't like the hood style attachment. I do. If yer in Austin I'll just give you a pair of mine. Some of the new ones that I'm sure everybody will hate. At this point I will be on a mission to build a frame with every one of these dropouts, yeah that's it, one frame with 12 styles of dropouts, it will have an eccentric too. You know what caused this? Making singlespeeds work with discs. 13 years later and we are still trying to re invent the wheel. Right now in my shop I have an SS with a gozilllion miles on it, I built it in 2000 and it has an eccentric. No creaks no leaks no fuss no muss. Just keeps working and working.

[bellman]

Wade I have one more for you to build with, i'm just getting ready to release my sliding bottom bracket..............

[Pi Guy]

Wade I have one more for you to build with, i'm just getting ready to release my sliding bottom bracket..............

That has actually been done! On a tandem.

-Jason