Attorneys: Liability Exposure When Building Frames for No Personal Compensation

[jclay]

If an amateur framebuilder constructs no more than a few bicycle frames/year for individuals in exchange for their providing the materials and making monetary contributions directly to agreed upon political candidates or good works organizations of the builder’s choosing, could the builder and his/her assets (assuming a competent, detailed release of liability) be protected against liability and injury claims (without going bankrupt in the process)?

Because I enjoy the craft and that type of bicycle, I’d like to build no more than two or three all-road/randonneur frame/fork sets per year for the numerous folks that have been requesting same for some years now. I am not interested in a commercial venture and am unwilling to expose myself to liability/financial ruin for doing so. Could this or some other type of arrangement achieve my goal?

If there any attorneys on VS that could give me a quick yes/maybe/no read on it I’d sure appreciate it. If the answer is a slam dunk “no, you can’t really be protected” then it will save me some trouble and dosh; if “yes” or “maybe” then I’ll know to seek solid, paid counsel.

Thanks much!

[rwsaunders]

If an amateur framebuilder constructs no more than a few bicycle frames/year for individuals in exchange for their providing the materials and making monetary contributions directly to agreed upon political candidates or good works organizations of the builder’s choosing, could the builder and his/her assets (assuming a competent, detailed release of liability) be protected against liability and injury claims (without going bankrupt in the process)?

Because I enjoy the craft and that type of bicycle, I’d like to build no more than two or three all-road/randonneur frame/fork sets per year for the numerous folks that have been requesting same for some years now. I am not interested in a commercial venture and am unwilling to expose myself to liability/financial ruin for doing so. Could this or some other type of arrangement achieve my goal?

If there any attorneys on VS that could give me a quick yes/maybe/no read on it I’d sure appreciate it. If the answer is a slam dunk “no, you can’t really be protected” then it will save me some trouble and dosh; if “yes” or “maybe” then I’ll know to seek solid, paid counsel.

Thanks much!

I’m not an attorney nor do I play one on tv, but wise counsel once advised me about the potential outcome of a case that we were assisting a client with…”it depends”.

[TonyP]

i’m not an attorney nor do i play one on tv, but wise counsel once advised me about the potential outcome of a case that we were assisting a client with…”it depends”.

wtf

[Mabouya]

wtf

I believe he means something similar to "it's complicated."

[rwsaunders]

I believe he means something similar to "it's complicated."

Yep…Louis is correct.

I’m a young(er) construction project manager at the time and it involved a construction claim from an electrical sub for foundations for football field lighting standards. There was no question in my mind that the claim was erroneous, but nonetheless, we moved through mediation to arbitration over a period of 15 months. In a prep meeting priory to the arbitration hearing, I commented to our client’s attorney that “this was black and white imho and we will win the case, right?”. The attorney responded with “it depends”, stating things like perhaps the opposing counsel has a more compelling defense prepared, or the arbitrator might not like the client’s attorney based on rumors of his court demeanor, or perhaps her husband gave her a hard time this morning and I remind her of him…that kind of discussion. It’s stuck with me throughout my career and I share this story often with younger PM’s, trying to tell them to open their eyes and ears, as everything that you see and believe, is sometimes not translated in the same manner to others. Yes, we won the arbitration as the sub came off as unprepared and combative under cross, but it still cost our client 5 figures in legal fees and time. Less than the claim, but the sub would have been better to agree to mediate.

[steve garro]

I’m not an attorney nor do I play one on tv, but wise counsel once advised me about the potential outcome of a case that we were assisting a client with…”it depends”.

Yep.
There are only three answers:

Yes
No
I don't recall

- Garro.

[jclay]

Yep…Louis is correct.

I’m a young(er) construction project manager at the time and it involved a construction claim from an electrical sub for foundations for football field lighting standards. There was no question in my mind that the claim was erroneous, but nonetheless, we moved through mediation to arbitration over a period of 15 months. In a prep meeting priory to the arbitration hearing, I commented to our client’s attorney that “this was black and white imho and we will win the case, right?”. The attorney responded with “it depends”, stating things like perhaps the opposing counsel has a more compelling defense prepared, or the arbitrator might not like the client’s attorney based on rumors of his court demeanor, or perhaps her husband gave her a hard time this morning and I remind her of him…that kind of discussion. It’s stuck with me throughout my career and I share this story often with younger PM’s, trying to tell them to open their eyes and ears, as everything that you see and believe, is sometimes not translated in the same manner to others. Yes, we won the arbitration as the sub came off as unprepared and combative under cross, but it still cost our client 5 figures in legal fees and time. Less than the claim, but the sub would have been better to agree to mediate.

I'm similarly professionally experienced....so one might reasonably wonder why the Q. It's a good question....caught me being an optimist maybe? I'm not often accused of that but sometimes I hope against hope that there might be a way....even when I'm pretty sure there isn't. Yeah....that's it...I'm practicing optimism. You heard it here first! Though even with E&O insurance a friend was personally, financially demolished as a result of a case against her for which she was ultimately found innocent. So, it's not like the insured framebuilder pros are actually fully protected against ruin, just better protected than otherwise.

It's too bad there almost certainly won't be a way 'cause these are cool bikes, I enjoy making them, doing so could power some good works and I have lotsa folks asking.

It's a nice thought. I think I'll pop on some music and wash the dishes.

[rwsaunders]

Again, not an attorney here, but forming a separate corporation for the business and properly insuring against probable claims is about the best you can do. I’ve seen folks get in trouble when they “commingle” their personal and business finances and it takes discipline to do so.

[Nomadmax]

The term "No good deed goes unpunished" came from somewhere.

[vertical_doug]

Like Nomadmax said ^

It is a bad idea. This is not about the bike. Let me give you a simplified argument- You are willing to go bankrupt if you can have some people contribute to a political candidate or cause you believe in. That is your fundamental proposition.

It's a good deal for the politician, it's a bad deal for you. That's generally how politics work. Don't be the guy left holding the bag. See J6ers for details.

[jclay]

Like Nomadmax said ^

It is a bad idea. This is not about the bike. Let me give you a simplified argument- You are willing to go bankrupt if you can have some people contribute to a political candidate or cause you believe in. That is your fundamental proposition.

It's a good deal for the politician, it's a bad deal for you. That's generally how politics work. Don't be the guy left holding the bag. See J6ers for details.

I'm not willing to go bankrupt, hence throwing out the Q of whether or not the stated goal was possible to the diverse, smart and experienced group of folks here. The answers are what I have long figured the reality would be but one don't know what one don't know...so the Q. That said, I'm surprised an atty hasn't chimed in.

The other day I wondered if registering as a bona-fide charitable organization might provide the necessary shielding; it that were the case, which I also doubt but figure is worth the keyboard practice here, I'd assume contributions would have to be to the non-political realm, and that would be fine.

While think it is almost certainly not workable, there's no harm in the asking. And if there's a subject matter expert atty here who knows that there truly is no framework that will do the job, I'd be grateful if you'd (that atty only please) post a reply here or shoot me a PM; via either method it need consist of nothing but the single word "NO".

[jclay]

The term "No good deed goes unpunished" came from somewhere.

That seems to be a natural law as grounded in reality as gravity. But...on the off chance...Bueller?

[e-RICHIE]

I'm reminded of so many conversations and threads going back decades, and that includes before all of us found each other online.

I am not interested in a commercial venture and am unwilling to expose myself to liability/financial ruin for doing so.

You're fabricating a vehicle that will be used on the open road. With that comes a responsibility. Making a frame(s) doesn't need to be something that produces a revenue stream or even a profit. Personally, I have difficulty even processing that some might consider it a hobby (or some creative outlet) but that's my cross to bear. I think my point of view, especially some twenty years after we began discussing this online, is the minority. I'm the guy trying to keep the trade's bar high and encouraging all to practice, and practice more, before exchanging a frame you make for someone else's currency. In 2023 I don't get as involved as I once did. But my opinions regarding liability and coverage haven't softened.

[jclay]

Jorn,

Sorry to bother but would you lock this thread please? It's not moving in any productive directions.

Thanks,
John

[jclay]

Jorn,

Sorry to be a bother but would you lock this thread please? It is not and likely will not move in any productive directions.

If any attorneys have the relevant experience necessary to the OP please PM me.

Thanks,
John

[j44ke]

e-Richie's advice (and others) is solid. Take it under advisement and ask an attorney in person.