Tooling question: Milling Machine vise SWIVEL BASE (90 or 360?)

[illcomm33]

Hello,
Hope everyone is well!
A couple basic & quick questions for those of you using milling machines.

1) For your mill vise do you have a swivel base?
I recently purchased my first mill (1953 Nichols) which came with an old Brown and Sharpe 5" vise.
The vise doesn't have a swivel base and I have been encouraged to get one.

If you have a swivel base do you have and use the 360 graduated degrees? The only base I can find for that older vise only has graduated degrees up to 90. Is this even worth looking into?

I use BikeCad Pro (recently purchased) which can tell me the specific angles of tube junctions.

2) Is it as simple as taking the Bikecad angle (ex. downtube/headtube angle) for a given junction and adjusting the vise to that specific angle?

Sorry for the basic mill/setup questions but besides using a handfile with Nova miter templates it is all new to me. :)

Thanks in advance for any guidance/suggestions you have.

Travis

[Andrew R Stewart]

Others with real mill experience can give far better answers but I'll say that in an ideal world, Tes. Adjust the vice to the indicated angles and cut away. But in the real world the resulting miter angle might not be spot on. At the very least you should cut some practice pieces to confirm or develop a correction factor. Things can drift, the cut can get more bite on one side of the miter VS the other side, the vice might not be true. the tube might not be square in the jaws. Do you have a veiner protractor? When I moved on from making paper drawings to fit the tube to the veiner protractor was the first piece of equipment I got. Still have it and use it frequently many years later. Remember, one measurement is worth a thousand assumptions. Andy.

[illcomm33]

Andy,
Thank you for taking the time to reply to my post. Great tips on the practice cuts to develop a strategy as well as variables to watch out for! I also planned on still using my paper miter templates to mark the tube (further away than the desired length) and see how close the angle is.

I don't have a veiner protractor at this time so I will look into one of them for sure.

Also, just in case in helps, I wanted to point out that the mill is a horizontal mill since I failed to mention that in the original post.

Thanks all.

[Rody]

Travis,

If you mill has sufficient vertical axis space, I would instead suggest a rotary table instead of the swivel base. A rotary table will provide a solid, accurate foundation for your work, with much more adaptability for other processes. It costs a bit more money up front, but will pay for it's self long term.

As for making your miters, the accuracy of cutting a miter to a blueprint spec depends wholy on your fixture's abilty to replicate your intended design. My fixture is my 3D blueprint, placing all the critical points where they must be relative to each other. I will use a starting angle from my design for my miter, check the fit of the joint in the fixture, then adjust for a perfect fit. You will find that paper templates, while helpful for hand filing, slow the process when using machinary.

Remember, the strength of moving to machinary is to provide accurate, repeatable cuts for production style work. Paper templates and hand files can be as fast, and more prudent, unless the investment in equipment yields an economic, functional, or fun factor for you.

rody

[afwalker]

Travis,
I use a mitutoyo vernier protractor based on Andrew's recommendation and it's a very useful tool. Here's one on ebay: Mitutoyo 187 904 Bevel Protractor D1127 1 | eBay
I use a Nichols for lots of cuts on a rotary table based tube mitering jig I made, after a few measurements I rely on the dial in the rotary table as it's accurate.
9317648382_81011fe759_m.jpg I have a slotting set up using an angle plate on my flickr page Flickr: afwalker's Photostream
With such a useful tool like the Nichols, you'll find you will be needing all sorts of great tools. I do really like that self-centering vise, big time saver.
Woodstock D4064 Precision Self Centering Vise - Amazon.com
Don's Anvil seatstay jig comes with a 90 deg Wilton vise, and the scale is good, but I double check with the protractor.
cheers
andy walker

[illcomm33]

Rody/Andy,

As always thanks a ton for the guidance and suggestions. I really appreciate the detailed replies with pictures and all!
I never heard of/considered a rotary table but have added it, along with that Mitutoyo protractor, to my list of tooling I need to purchase.

Still working on some cash flow issues but at least I have a good understanding of what I need to look for. Just wanted to take the time and say thank you!

Travis

[halekai]

Often the angle you want to cut is (some number X) - 90 degrees...at least for me and my daily mitering. You should not need more than a 90* swivel for most work but boy as soon as you need it you will kick yourself. That nichols is an awsome mill. Solid. Versitile. Lots of travel. Good score! I have an idea that you will be using it for a lot more than just tube mitering. You are going to be milling all kinds of things from frame parts to tooling so treat yourself to a 360* rotary base and or rotary table and you will be a happy camper.

On the other hand...if the 90* base is $5 and your neighbor is selling it then get it and use it while looking for the other tooling you need on E-bay Craigslist etc.

Hale

[steve garro]

On my mill I have both a tubing vise mounted to a rotary table & a two way vise for stay fixtures, but I think I'm going to replace it with a 3-way for even more complex angles.
Grizzly.com
- Garro.

[EnginCycles]

On my mill I have both a tubing vise mounted to a rotary table & a two way vise for stay fixtures, but I think I'm going to replace it with a 3-way for even more complex angles.
Grizzly.com
- Garro.

Steve,
That vise is junk, don't do it. It lacks all the right stuff when it comes to being a machine vise. It won't be accurate in any direction, the jaws are to small and it lacks angle lock so it won't hold it tight. Also keep in mind they don't pivot on the center of the work so often the compound angle feature is not very useful. A super spacer or dividing head is always better for this type of work. Get yourself a proper machine vise and you will never look back. I realize the Kurt vises are very expensive but their patent ran out on the angle lock and now the imports are better as well. They need to say this type of action. I also have a few vises from Glacern and they are very nice products. Here is an example of a import vise that has the angle lock.

I am answering this with actual experience, I had the non import version of that vise made by Wilton and it sucked.

-Drew

[steve garro]

Steve,
That vise is junk, don't do it. It lacks all the right stuff when it comes to being a machine vise. It won't be accurate in any direction, the jaws are to small and it lacks angle lock so it won't hold it tight. Also keep in mind they don't pivot on the center of the work so often the compound angle feature is not very useful. A super spacer or dividing head is always better for this type of work. Get yourself a proper machine vise and you will never look back. I realize the Kurt vises are very expensive but their patent ran out on the angle lock and now the imports are better as well. They need to say this type of action. I also have a few vises from Glacern and they are very nice products. Here is an example of a import vise that has the angle lock.

I am answering this with actual experience, I had the non import version of that vise made by Wilton and it sucked.

-Drew

I posted the 1st link google gave me - I'm a solid Wilton machinist guy, I think I have 6-7 vises total now.........
Wilton vises, Kennedy toolboxes.
But, I appreciate your input as I'm shopping for one (are all 3-ways junk?)
Vises last a long time - buy good ones!

It's cool that you're such a machine guy, but to be honest you are at a level of it I do not aspire to.
I just want enough to make my bikes, and they are pretty simple machines.

Honestly I don't know what that Bison lathe attachment even does, but I sure love my Bison tubing vise......
- Garro.

[EnginCycles]

I posted the 1st link google gave me - I'm a solid Wilton machinist guy, I think I have 6-7 vises total now.........
Wilton vises, Kennedy toolboxes.
But, I appreciate your input as I'm shopping for one (are all 3-ways junk?)
Vises last a long time - buy good ones!

It's cool that you're such a machine guy, but to be honest you are at a level of it I do not aspire to.
I just want enough to make my bikes, and they are pretty simple machines.

Honestly I don't know what that Bison lathe attachment even does, but I sure love my Bison tubing vise......
- Garro.

The super spacer is not a lathe part but used on a milling machine. My comments will be about this product. Yes it is from Wilton. I doubt they actually make it and it is probably a re-branding of the other Grizzly product. My issue with it was they axis movement is very annoying to actually do since it is hard to actually move the cradle part with accuracy. The next is the set screws that hold the movements are lame and often take it out of tram depending on the angle. The swivel base is fine but rather small. It is the other two movements that are annoying. I just had issues with it holding work (not angle lock) and the accuracy being no good. Feel free to give it a whirl as it might work for you. Too bad I sold mine off for so cheap. I would have gladly sold it to you.

-Drew

[steve garro]

Feel free to give it a whirl as it might work for you. Too bad I sold mine off for so cheap. I would have gladly sold it to you.

-Drew

Oh....
I believe you - and, value your input.
It's just that allot of the time I just don't understand you - you are light years ahead of me machining wise.
It's like me speaking Navajo - ya' ah t'eeh, abinni.

So basically I want a three way to bolt to a mill, or do they all suck?
Good luck with 2-ways so far.

I got a drill press this year, I thought that was a huge leap.
- Garro.

[Meriwether]

Travis,
I'd recommend THIS rotary table - Phase II 8" rotary table from ENCO. On sale right now! It's what I should've gotten but instead I bought a Yuasa type from Grizzly a few years ago.

I also was considering a 3-axis vise like the Wilton and glad Drew laid out his experience, thanks for that.
The setup I have is clunky for mitering the crown pieces of segmented forks (4" milling vise on top of an angle plate, set tube block in vise w/ angle finder) but it works and doesn't come out of tram once set. But the height difference between the mill's table and the top of the vise is ridiculous and i do have to lower/raise the mill's head and re-center stuff when doing different operations on either side of the table. So my question to Drew and others is (sorry so off topic but...) how do you recommend we cut the fork crown pieces for segmented forks when you need to vary the angle in 2+ axes?

[EnginCycles]

Travis,
I'd recommend THIS rotary table - Phase II 8" rotary table from ENCO. On sale right now! It's what I should've gotten but instead I bought a Yuasa type from Grizzly a few years ago.

I also was considering a 3-axis vise like the Wilton and glad Drew laid out his experience, thanks for that.
The setup I have is clunky for mitering the crown pieces of segmented forks (4" milling vise on top of an angle plate, set tube block in vise w/ angle finder) but it works and doesn't come out of tram once set. But the height difference between the mill's table and the top of the vise is ridiculous and i do have to lower/raise the mill's head and re-center stuff when doing different operations on either side of the table. So my question to Drew and others is (sorry so off topic but...) how do you recommend we cut the fork crown pieces for segmented forks when you need to vary the angle in 2+ axes?

I have a few tools that I have made over the years that I feel could be a real winner in the market. This is one of those tools. I have a super slick fixture that I made for this operation and in time I might make them available. I will tell you since that vise does not rotate on the center of the work it will not work for getting a mirror image part. It is just too complicated and small (the segmented piece) to work on those axis. There are a few tools I never take a picture of. This is one of them.

[Meriwether]

There are a few tools I never take a picture of. This is one of them.

I was afraid you were going to say that....

I'd be interested if you ever do produce such a tool/fixture. Filing to fit those pieces is unfun.

[afwalker]

9012312094_85a53c8978_m.jpg
These helps my centering a lot for this main tube mitering, Carl at Metal Guru « Lessons in bicycle manufacturing inspired the design and Todd at FARR Frameworks made the custom dead center that fits into the rotary table. When all three dead centers are lined up, you can rotate 90 deg and they all stay on center:)
I have used it to make segmented forks Whit, I weld the top piece to the steerer first, then miter for the fork leg.
cheers
andy walker

[EricKeller]

Andy,
Where did you get those vise jaws?

[afwalker]

Eric,
MAGNETIC 'V' BLOCK UNIVERSAL VISE JAWS
Aren't those sweet? Whit put me on to those, very useful.
That vice is self centering and that really is a big help also.
Woodstock D4064 Precision Self Centering Vise - Amazon.com
the price seems to go up and down, I thought it was $149 a while ago.
cheers
andy walker