So it's jobs they want eh?

[Loki]

What ISIS Really Wants

Apparently not!

[caleb]

Great longform read with no punches pulled. Thanks for sharing.

[davids]

I just read that. Clash of civilizations, for sure.

[Too Tall]

Thanks, good read.

[dogrange]

Agreed, good read, and makes intuitive sense.

[Dallas Tex]

Fantastic article.

In the US, I believe there was an almost reflexive response by some to differentiate the religious doctrine from the violence. This was done in the spirit of tolerance with good intentions.

It's ironic to me to find good, religion hating atheists instantly become apologists for the world's most intolerant religion as soon as the word 'terrorism' enters the conversation.

[Matthew J]

It's ironic to me to find good, religion hating atheists instantly become apologists for the world's most intolerant religion as soon as the word 'terrorism' enters the conversation.

Or more likely people enlightened enough to take religion with a grain of salt are also observant and well informed to the point where they understand the bulk of the troops on the ground leading the fight against ISIS and AQ just happen to be made up of people who also profess Islamic beliefs.

It's a hell of a lot more complicated than simple minded 'Murica -v- them.

[Christian Fox]

I think it has to do with guilt and skin color. The lines between religion and race get blurred; it feels 'racist' and uncomfortable to criticize Islam because your average Muslim looks different. It doesn't feel racist to rail against a white, Christian conservative even though their level of intolerance might pale in comparison.

[vertical_doug]

The problem has always been the Saudis.

If you can get 'Bitter Lake' which is a BBC funded documentary on Afghan history post WW2, watch it.

40 years from now, Syria/Iraq/Libya will still be just as messed up if not more.....

[caleb]

I just read that. Clash of civilizations, for sure.

Googled the author, and wasn't surprised to find out he's a Deep Springer. If there's a clash to be found, those guys will find it or make it.

[Will Neide]

The problem has always been the Saudis.

If you can get 'Bitter Lake' which is a BBC funded documentary on Afghan history post WW2, watch it.

40 years from now, Syria/Iraq/Libya will still be just as messed up if not more.....

The problem is Islam itself, but I agree 40 years from now those countries will be messed up, just like they always have.

That region told us what they think of us long ago. We have short memories and/or are naive.

"In March 1785, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams went to London to negotiate with Tripoli's envoy, Ambassador Sidi Haji Abdrahaman (or Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja). When they enquired "concerning the ground of the pretensions to make war upon nations who had done them no injury", the ambassador replied:


It was written in their Koran, that all nations which had not acknowledged the Prophet were sinners, whom it was the right and duty of the faithful to plunder and enslave; and that every mussulman who was slain in this warfare was sure to go to paradise. He said, also, that the man who was the first to board a vessel had one slave over and above his share, and that when they sprang to the deck of an enemy's ship, every sailor held a dagger in each hand and a third in his mouth; which usually struck such terror into the foe that they cried out for quarter at once.[21]"


First Barbary War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[dogrange]

The problem has always been the Saudis.

If you can get 'Bitter Lake' which is a BBC funded documentary on Afghan history post WW2, watch it.

40 years from now, Syria/Iraq/Libya will still be just as messed up if not more.....

Agreed, this has been a big problem, perpetuated by us. It seems to me unfortunate that we have been sending big $$ to this absolute monarchy that suppresses human rights actively at home (no vote, no driving for women, etc.) and that actively funds salafist madrassas around the world for the last 70+ years. Global warming debate aside, to me it is worth promoting bikes and other ways to cut oil consumption just to avoid further funding of this society that works actively against values we profess as important.

[davids]

The problem is Islam itself, but I agree 40 years from now those countries will be messed up, just like they always have.

That region told us what they think of us long ago. We have short memories and/or are naive.

"In March 1785, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams went to London to negotiate with Tripoli's envoy, Ambassador Sidi Haji Abdrahaman (or Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja). When they enquired "concerning the ground of the pretensions to make war upon nations who had done them no injury", the ambassador replied:


It was written in their Koran, that all nations which had not acknowledged the Prophet were sinners, whom it was the right and duty of the faithful to plunder and enslave; and that every mussulman who was slain in this warfare was sure to go to paradise. He said, also, that the man who was the first to board a vessel had one slave over and above his share, and that when they sprang to the deck of an enemy's ship, every sailor held a dagger in each hand and a third in his mouth; which usually struck such terror into the foe that they cried out for quarter at once.[21]"


First Barbary War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The problem isn't "Islam". The problem is a strain of ultra-orthodox Islam that, combined with crushing poverty and political oppression, has turned into an engine of violence and oppression threatening vast numbers of people.

One of the most important ideas I took from that article is that ISIS isn't Al Qaeda (and isn't the Muslim Brotherhood, isn't the Saudi royal family, isn't the Al Nusra Front, etc. etc...) Quoting another Muslim whose point of view mirrors ISIS doesn't make them all the same. We have got to understand this organization for what it is - a political-religious movement bent on re-establishing a Caliphate as laid out in the Koran.

Conflating ISIS and "Islam" is like conflating the NJ Rabbi who was kidnapping husbands to force them to grant divorces, or the black-hatted Chasids threatening little girls for not dressing modestly, with "Judaism". There's a thousand ways to be a Muslim, and ISIS is a toxic evil version of the religion.

We need to start figuring out a way of destroying ISIS that doesn't have the perverse consequence of driving more disaffected Muslims into their orbit.

[Dallas Tex]

.........observant and well informed to the point where they understand the bulk of the troops on the ground leading the fight against ISIS and AQ just happen to be made up of people who also profess Islamic beliefs.

?? Everybody knows this. Not only your self-selected 'enlightened and well informed'. I don't know anybody that doesn't know that ISIS is fighting in the middle east and fighting against armies from these muslim majority countries, or the fact that ISIS has killed thousands of civilians.

It's a hell of a lot more complicated than simple minded 'Murica -v- them.

??? I never said anything like that. No where in the thread does anyone take that position. The article doesn't even allude to such a thing. You made up a statement & position, then responded to it.

[Dallas Tex]

Of course the problem is Islam. These acts are are inspired by this religion, right or wrong.

Why is it so difficult for folks to criticsize a religion???

I'm not a big religious guy. Remove the 'Magic Guy in the Sky' from it and its just a social club. Like the Shriners.

If the Shriner's doctrine and codes were inspiring countless acts of violence and oppression, it'd be easy to criticsize.

[davids]

Of course the problem is Islam. These acts are are inspired by this religion, right or wrong.

Why is it so difficult for folks to criticsize a religion???

How do you feel about the President saying, "...remember that during the Crusades and the Inquisition, people committed terrible deeds in the name of Christ. In our home country, slavery and Jim Crow all too often was justified in the name of Christ." ?

Some people felt he was criticizing Christianity and were quite upset.

I saw it more as a reminder that terrible things have been done in the name of, hell, pretty much every religion. And that we should be attacking those terrible things (and the people doing them) rather than the broader religion.

[Cookietruck]

Of course the problem is Islam. These acts are are inspired by this religion, right or wrong.

Why is it so difficult for folks to criticsize a religion???

I'm not a big religious guy. Remove the 'Magic Guy in the Sky' from it and its just a social club. Like the Shriners.

If the Shriner's doctrine and codes were inspiring countless acts of violence and oppression, it'd be easy to criticsize.

i think you missed a big point
it's not about islam, it's about some extremists that interpret some ancient scriptures literally.
i'm not very religious so i might be wrong here, but doesn't the bible have scriptures that reference owning slaves and things women arent allowed to do so on and so forth...
does that make all catholics or christians a "problem" too?

[Dallas Tex]

, but doesn't the bible have scriptures that reference owning slaves and things women arent allowed to do so on and so forth...
does that make all catholics or christians a "problem" too?

As soon Catholic slavery and oppression occurs on a scale that rivals Islamic oppression & violence, then YES it would be a problem.

[Cookietruck]

As soon Catholic slavery and oppression occurs on a scale that rivals Islamic oppression & violence, then YES it would be a problem.

right
so you believe anyone that is islamic is a supporter of ISIS?

[Dallas Tex]

How do you feel about the President saying, "...remember that during the Crusades and the Inquisition, people committed terrible deeds in the name of Christ. In our home country, slavery and Jim Crow all too often was justified in the name of Christ." ?.

No religion should be above criticism. What upset me was using things that happened 1,000 years ago as a way to excuse or rationalize horrible acts of violence and oppression that are happening today.