Steel frames...fillet brazed vs. lugged?

[Luke]

This is a nooby question that I'm sure has been asked 1,000 times before:

As a new builder which diresction should I go...lugs or no lugs?

Tell me also about using stainless lugs, and the difficulty I might have with blending materials (I've been warned to stay away from stainless for a while)
I would love to build a lugged frame with polished stainless BB and lugs.
***I'm tired of dropping a chain and tearing up paint and/or carbon fibre!

Lugs would be heavier, I guess. Obviously more material involved.
Titanium would be optimum, but I don't want to go TIG right now.
I have tanks and rods, so I want to stay steel.
Although the Independent Fabricator carbon/Ti stuff in awesome !!!

I want to build a modern geometric road bike shape, slopping...perhaps with a slight radius on the TT.
Use maybe a straight TT lug at the stem, and a slopping tube lug at the seat...make up the 6 degrees or so with a bend in the top tube??
Any thoughts on that? I'm just spinning ideas around in my head.

I want that modern shape with OS tubes...maybe luggless (If thats a word) would be the best choice.

Polished fittings would be SEXY though....

I'm open to feedback and questions!
Thanks in advance.
Luke

[L.gunnar]

as another L plater, i went with lugs and Im not regretting it. I can get more experience with less fooling around until later. You can still build a light frame. Dazza Mculloch dispelled the idea for me that stainless is exceedingly hard,as long as you do it right. If its on the market as lug suitable somebody,s made sure its a type of stainless thats good to go. I have fillet soldered copper pipe and sheet pretty well, but intuitively, bicycles will be a step up for me in that area.
I also found a free program called tube miter that prints out your profile flat so you can mark and cut and file easily its very cool

[e-RICHIE]

Until you feel comfortable with a torch, a flame, and the steel, stay away from stainless atmo.

[einreb]

For what its worth... my first three frames were a basic lugged frame (cheap Nova sale), a fillet frame and then a stainless lugged frame.

Its all just learning experience at this point, so just have at it. The Henry Hill 'Think System' only goes so far...

[edoz]

I think your visual taste will at least partially make your decision. Do you like lugged bikes or fillet bikes better? Any influences or favorite builders to steer you?
You could get some tubing and try both, if you find that your hands like doing one over the other go that way. Or learn both.

[WadePatton]

lugs will point you in the right direction. fillet is freehand. mix and match as desired.

don't mess with exotica (ss/ti/etc) until you are confident in your ability to manage the gold standard* atwo.

*cyclo-specific variations on the theme of 4130.

[Andrew R Stewart]

Do what's easiest first. For most that's lugged cromoly. Unless your tube sizes/shapes or joining angles are far off lug choices. If you talk about weight at this early point you're wasting band width. Andy.

[Luke]

Thanks men, for all the input so far...
Knowledge is power!

[Doug Fattic]

My day job is to teach how to braze bicycles and it is a very rare student that has the ability to braze a stainless steel lug on his first frame. And this would be after explanations and demonstrations and then with practice with an instructor right there to guide and correct and stop your immediately if something starts to go wrong. Stainless has a narrow heat working window and if one goes over the limit it contaminates the surface and you have to start over (which is practically impossible to pull tubes apart again). Almost all beginners have similar problematic characteristics including not being able to operate both hands independently of each other most often resulting in a hot spot. It is also rare that they can move the torch evenly over the area they are about to braze. They almost always get into a "groove" leaving some places too hot while others too cold. The concept seems very simple but few can do it at first. A good brazer doesn't have to think about how far his flame is from the joint (it remains constant), how fast he is moving, the angle the flame, etc, he can just react instinctively to what is happening. I don't let students use Stainless lugs in class unless they don't mind either me or Herbie brazing it for them.

[L.gunnar]

My apologies if I shot my mouth off. If so its no-ones fault but mine .

[Luke]

Thanks Doug...yeah, I think I'm smart enough to stay away from stainless. I know my limitations.

More thoughts:

Lugged would allow for less precise mitres, less time tweaking the fit, and less brazing rod. yes?
Asthetically, I like the look of fillet, and because you are free to use any shape or angle, it allows you many freedoms.
Fillet would seem like more work, but with better results.
A beginner would be better to start with lugs, as it fits like a puzzle...and most likely a stronger joint. yes?
I don't know...I keep going back and forth on what to build next.

L.Gunner...no worries...

I may just keep cutting up a few more old bicycles and practice altering them, and building up things like that
before I build a 'dream' road bike.
At the shop we have nearly an endless supply of old donor bike to throw in the jig.
I enjoy practicing pulling off tabs,hangers, and cable guides, and filing them smooth...
and making something new from something old.

;)

[WadePatton]

Your still need good mitres, you'll still have to work the lugs to fit your angles and also to get proper clearance for the filler you use. Brass and silver don't work the same. "Less rod" is offset by "more lugs".

You have to decided to pin or not pin your pipes and lugs. You have all the lug cleaning up/carving to do. You might build yourself a lug vise.

Yeah, my first one--with lugs is still my pride and joy because it came out great and hasn't come apart yet (and the "non-standard" geometry works(learn some fitment too)) BUT i'd recommend the "dream" bike to _not_ be your first.

No one should spend four years between deciding and actually making one as I did. I used fillet construction on the second one and it came out a bit ugly (in the eyes of a FB) but useful in geo and great on the trail and still...together.

The rule that fits me at this point on my path: lugs-road/cross, fillet-atb/special app.

-
if you have loads of decent materials to cut up, then by all means learn to make your own lugs...hit it from all angles! all the donor metal i could come up with was sewerpipe blo's

[Eric Estlund]

You are way over thinking bike number one. Pick a method you think looks nice and you find interesting, and then go to town on some practice materials. Once you have either decent fillets or good "lug"* penetration, the rest of it will be, essentially, the same. The joinery is generally the smallest part of the bike. [*- slip fit tube scraps, lots of info on the FB list]

Your first bike will be a first bike, regardless of how you stick the tubes together. Worry about getting competent at any one, then change it up and try another method if you are interested.

These both took roughly the same amount of time and effort, all in:




It's only as hard or as good as you make it- so worry less about the "it" and more about the "making".

[Luke]

Damn, Eric...that's exactly what I need to do!
Overthinking is part of my OCD. LOL
I lay awake at night with bike geometry running thru my skull.
-Luke

[Eric Estlund]

I'm right there with you, Luke. Don't let the planning stages cripple you from moving forward. Set a couple of time based goals, and go after it. If you miss them, re assess and reset. Trust me, it's more rewarding to obsess about the stuff you can improve on then then stuff you haven't done yet. Good luck!

Oh, and go pursue the FB list archives and the MTBR board. There is a ton of good info from guys working on their first or first couple of frames that will help you get over that hump.