macOS or Windows (and why)

[NYCfixie]

Jorn's thread - http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum...day-46031.html - has been a good discussion about the newest MacBook Pro and has included some discussion about Apple and non-Apple hardware.

As an IT professional, I am platform agnostic and sick of talking about macOS versus Windows because 95% of what people do in schools (my current industry) is on the web. We implement and support macOS, iOS, Windows, Chrome/ChromeBooks, Amazon Readers, Linux, and a few other things to fulfill the need(s). From a budget and support standpoint it can be very expensive and time consuming which I always find amusing because schools have limited budgets but independent schools are not good about process and standards.

As a consumer, all of my devices are old (iPad v1, iPhone4, MacBook Pro 2010, HP Folio 9470m) because I have not really found anything in years that excites me enough to pay for with my own money. I have always had a Mac and a PC because I use Quicken that is only on Windows and some things are easier on a Mac.

Since we have not had a good Shimano vs Campy, Tubs vs Clinchers vs Tubeless, Rim vs Disc brake, narrow vs wide rim, or similar thread/debate in a some time, why not macOS vs Windows. This is sort of an unscientific research project for me because I think in 2016 unless there is a business/professional need for a piece of software with no viable alternative on the other platform, macOS versus Windows is solely a personal preference.

All I ask is that we keep it civil and explain what we use, why we use it, and offer help to others.

[colker]

What about Android x MacOS? I just got an Android based phone and deciding between an Iphone x android gave me a headache. I would like to hop on Icloud all the time to get cozy w/ my files but didn´t feel paying 3x for an Iphone 6.

[mwynne]

"Digital Applications Librarian" (librarian at a university) being my job title, I'm pretty agnostic myself. Personally I use a (late 2012) macbook pro myself - I like the OS (but I cannot stand using iOS), I like the all-aluminum construction of this model, and love the retina screen. But with the new design direction, which I feel is user hostile amongst other things, I can't imagine getting a new one when this one eventually dies. Maybe a hackintosh if I can find a laptop with specs/construction I like Hackintosh Instructions, Hackintosh How To Guides: Hackintosh.com

We use mostly PCs at work, and echoing the OP, so much is browser based, so it rarely matters. Except when troubleshooting needs to happen - trying to pinpoint issues when everyone is on different equipment can be a hassle. One gripe, our boss insists on using mac (fine, she has the pull to get that equipment herself, and if I could, I probably would to), and especially insists on using keynote for preparing presentations (which we do a lot), so that kind of platform-specific thing sucks. But that's more of a human issue than an OS issue. Hah, another gripe... Excel for Mac doesn't properly encode UTF-8, and character encoding is super critical to a lot of the work I do, so that always makes fun issues to resolve.

[DCT]

This is now in the OT section for obvious reasons. Go nuts.

[murphy]

Software engineer (specifically web applications) and I use macOS. The linux based kernel is really what sells it for me. I wouldn't mind running pure linux, but my company doesn't allow it. Windows would be a pain in the butt for me. FWIW, I use an Android phone though (although it bricked itself last night so I am regretting that decision right now).

[NYCfixie]

"Digital Applications Librarian" (librarian at a university) being my job title, I'm pretty agnostic myself. Personally I use a (late 2012) macbook pro myself - I like the OS (but I cannot stand using iOS), I like the all-aluminum construction of this model, and love the retina screen. But with the new design direction, which I feel is user hostile amongst other things, I can't imagine getting a new one when this one eventually dies. Maybe a hackintosh if I can find a laptop with specs/construction I like Hackintosh Instructions, Hackintosh How To Guides: Hackintosh.com

We use mostly PCs at work, and echoing the OP, so much is browser based, so it rarely matters. Except when troubleshooting needs to happen - trying to pinpoint issues when everyone is on different equipment can be a hassle. One gripe, our boss insists on using mac (fine, she has the pull to get that equipment herself, and if I could, I probably would to), and especially insists on using keynote for preparing presentations (which we do a lot), so that kind of platform-specific thing sucks. But that's more of a human issue than an OS issue. Hah, another gripe... Excel for Mac doesn't properly encode UTF-8, and character encoding is super critical to a lot of the work I do, so that always makes fun issues to resolve.

Keynote is fine if you do not need to share...or save out as PPT. Maybe encourage her to use Google Presentations (web based and built-in sharing but not as fancy as Keynote or PowerPoint) if you are allowed to by university rules.

Yes, excel does suck on a Mac. And one of the many reason I remain on a Windows computer at work even if I am at a mostly Apple based work environment. I spend too much time in Excel with Finance and Ops people to have it suck. I also need Visio.

Software engineer (specifically web applications) and I use macOS. The linux based kernel is really what sells it for me. I wouldn't mind running pure linux, but my company doesn't allow it. Windows would be a pain in the butt for me. FWIW, I use an Android phone though (although it bricked itself last night so I am regretting that decision right now).

Isn't the macOS (since OSX) based on the BSD version of Unix?

[mwynne]

Keynote is fine if you do not need to share...or save out as PPT. Maybe encourage her to use Google Presentations (web based and built-in sharing but not as fancy as Keynote or PowerPoint) if you are allowed to by university rules.

Yes, excel does suck on a Mac. And one of the many reason I remain on a Windows computer at work even if I am at a mostly Apple based work environment. I spend too much time in Excel with Finance and Ops people to have it suck. I also need Visio.

Yeah, sharing is the tough part. The rest of the team uses google slides pretty consistently, and thankfully most of us have a personal mac with keynote available. Long story behind it all, just the one big cross-platform incompatibility that came to mind.

Yep, I work primarily in excel on windows, or google sheets, and LibreOffice on my mac (and a few different text editors, and I keep meaning to find another spreadsheet tool just to keep in my back pocket... they all break/suck in a different way, so sometimes we need multiple tools to complete a project, oy). It's mostly language work, so accurate encoding is critical, not so much the other tools. The bigger problem is when I work with people outside of our environment who are excel+mac users. It's an issue I flag in all our documentation, but many people ignore that, and then come to with gnarly un-reversible encoding issues. Better working through education?

[Matthew Strongin]

MacOS because the trackpad and gestures are awesome.

[NYCfixie]

MacOS because the trackpad and gestures are awesome.

You and your ergonomics. Should have figured with you being a fan of SRAM.

[murphy]

Isn't the macOS (since OSX) based on the BSD version of Unix?

Yeah, when I said Linux-based kernel, it really should have been Unix-based kernel; I was just in a hurry earlier cause I was working on my phone. Either way, the guts are similar enough to Linux that doing development is dead simple. Talked to LG (my phone is a Nexus 5x) and I have to send it in to be repaired and they will either send me a new one or try to repair it.

Either way I ended up buying a refurbished iPhone which should be here tomorrow. Pixel didn't wow me, the Nexus 6p, since it has stopped production, is expensive, so back to an all Mac ecosystem for me. Then I just have to hope to get a good amount back when I try to sell the 5x after being repaired/replaced.

[mwynne]

Yeah, when I said Linux-based kernel, it really should have been Unix-based kernel; I was just in a hurry earlier cause I was working on my phone. Either way, the guts are similar enough to Linux that doing development is dead simple. Talked to LG (my phone is a Nexus 5x) and I have to send it in to be repaired and they will either send me a new one or try to repair it.

Either way I ended up buying a refurbished iPhone which should be here tomorrow. Pixel didn't wow me, the Nexus 6p, since it has stopped production, is expensive, so back to an all Mac ecosystem for me. Then I just have to hope to get a good amount back when I try to sell the 5x after being repaired/replaced.

I'm a big fan of my Nexus 5X overall. Not looking forward to finding an alternative when that day comes. Definitely NOT an iPhone - I like my headphones...

[Scott G.]

Platform choice is driven more by which web browser will work with which
web based app or web based piece of hardware. HVAC and maintenance vendors
are on the trailing edge, so IE on windows. Admins get windows, because Oracle
payroll and java, may come from the same company, but don't play nice with
each other sometimes.

[murphy]

I'm a big fan of my Nexus 5X overall. Not looking forward to finding an alternative when that day comes. Definitely NOT an iPhone - I like my headphones...

I was enjoying it a lot too. I didn't go to the latest and greatest but went to the 6s Plus so at least I can still run my Sennheisers. Since my 5x failed before end of the first year (and I care for my tech well), I am once bitten and twice shy.

The big thing for me in Android is that I like it clutter and bloatware free and unfortunately most OEM Android is anything but which is why I liked Nexus. The 6p and Pixels are just so expensive now.

[sailor]

As an engineer my work computer is windows 7, CAD doesn't play with macOS. It is stable and easy to use, no complaints. My personal machine is a chromebook that replaced a mac. I could not spend 1000+ on a web browsing machine and chrome works well for what I do, has lots of battery and a great screen. It will be even better when I can get android apps (hopefully soon).
I like android phones, I don't like the lack of buttons (back, switcher) on iOS but I also don't like big phones. Hopefully I can milk my 3 year old moto X until someone makes me a decent 4.5" android again.

[nick k]

As an engineer my work computer is windows 7, CAD doesn't play with macOS.

This is really not true. Perhaps the specific CAD application you prefer or are required to use is optimized or only available for Windows - I'm guessing probably Solidworks? But lots of us are professional CAD users with complex modeling requirements that are just as well served on Apple hardware and software - Vectorworks, Autocad, etc.. The applications you need drive the OS and hardware choices. CAD is a generic term for a process, not a product. I'm replying only to counter the myths that are pervasive - that Apple and Mac OS are tools for conceptual artists and lay people, but real engineering and design tools require Windows. You probably didn't mean to reinforce that, but I think your post did.

[sk_tle]

Software engineer (specifically web applications) and I use macOS. The linux based kernel is really what sells it for me. I wouldn't mind running pure linux, but my company doesn't allow it. Windows would be a pain in the butt for me. FWIW, I use an Android phone though (although it bricked itself last night so I am regretting that decision right now).

Isn't the macOS (since OSX) based on the BSD version of Unix?

As a unix system engineer it pains me to read this.

You are both wrong. Mac OS X is not based on a Unix kernel and there is no such thing as a "BSD" version of Unix.

A quick history :

1969 Unix is created in 1969 by Ken Thompson at Bell laboratories

1977 the Berkeley Software Distribution, or BSD started as a set of addons tools for the Unix version 6. Unix was originally an operating system but was later a brand and an specification. Any operating system following that spec can be considered a unix or unix-like OS.

Over the years the Berkeley Software Distribution was expanded with the rewriting of all the original Unix proprietary code as some was owned by companies such as AT&T (foreshadowing) which involved payment of licences. It evolved a lot and the codes were forked several time. Nowadays the most popular flavours are FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD and DragonflyBSD. They are all great operating systems. BSD is also a type of software licence. Basically those licences grants you the rights to modify the code and redistribute it under whatever conditions you want as long as you credits the original authors.

I'll leave out most proprietary unix flavors to focus on BSD, Linux and MacOS X.

In 1983 Richard Stallman founded the GNU (Gnu is Not Unix) Project whose goal was to create free (think copyleft) a unix operating system. Both BSD and GPL (the licence mainly used by the gnu project) licences grants the user rights to read, reuse and modify the code but the GPL adds restrictions that prevent the code and its evolutions from being relicensed with more restrictive terms and become proprietary in the process. One thing to know is code from the BSD licence can be relicenced under the GPL licence but the opposite is not true. The project initially wanted to use its own kernel (Hurd) but developpment of the kernel was a bit slow comparatively to the other parts of the operating system (forshadowing again).

1985 Steve Jobs is ousted from Apple and found Next computer which build in the late 80's the Nextstep operating system. It was a unix proprietary OS which combined a mach microkernel, a BSD userland (think basic command line tools), the Objective-C language and a great toolkit to build apps. This is really the base of what is now Mac OS X.

At around the same time Andrew Tanenbaum created the Minix (think "Mini Unix") Operating System.

In 1991, Linus Torvalds published the first version of the Linux Kernel under the GPL licence. At the time of his writing the Minix OS was only 16-bit and didn't worked great on the cheap, newer and popular intel 386pc while the Linux Kernel was written for it. This is one of the reason it became quickly popular in the hobbyist world. There were many other propietary unixes such as SunOS, AIX or HP-UX but most of them weren't free or ran on much more expensive machines. Since Linux was only a kernel and needed some other code to be usable, it was quickly shipped as part of software distributions (the different flavours of Linux, think redhat, debian, ubuntu...) with a mix of code from the Gnu project (and also some BSD code) which is the reason people like Richard Stallman want us to talk about GNU Linux or GNU/Linux operating systems.

In 1992 AT&T sued Berkeley. For a few years the BSD code almost came to a complete halt because of uncertainty on the future of the project. This is another reason the Linux based operating system grew quickly much more popular as industries started to pour money into it.

In 1996 Apple is declining and the Mac platform is outdated. Gil Amelio becomes CEO and he quickly chose to purchase Next bringing both Steve Jobs and the latest concept and code of the Nextstep operating system. Nextstep code becomes nicknamed Rhapsody to integrate some Mac OS concept and a compatibility layer with legacy Mac OS 8 code.

1999 Rhapsody 5.1 is commercialised as the Mac OS X server 1.0 operating system. Nexstep also developped XNU, a hybrid kernel. It is a bit technical but it tries to get the benefits of both a microkernel and a monolithic kernel. Think of the microkernel as something very small that doesn't do a lot of things but rely on small other parts (drivers, network subsystem, filesystems....) that doesn't run with the same
privileges and can but brought up or down without restart of the kernel. It involves overhead. It can be detrimental to performances. Think of monolithic as big thing that does a lot of things but whose bugs can crash the whole thing. Linux is considered as monolithic, its founder calling hybrid kernels as as marketing bullshit. Windows NT kernels (windows servers + Windows Vista and successors) are also considered hybrid as well as dragonflyBSD's kernel. So the XNU hybrid kernel started during the Nextstep era as a hybrid kernel using a Mach 2.5 microkernel and some 4.3BSD code. When Mac OS X was developped it was modified to use a Mach 3 kernel and some BSD code from FreeBSD. The FreeBSD code include the POSIX API, many network protocols, the security policies (user/groups/permissions,audit), the virtual filesystem code, Unix system V IPC code, some crypto thingies.

Mac OS X (now Mac OS) was launched in 2001. It includes the XNU kernel (mach + some BSD code), some proprietary stuff and software libraries/tools licensed under the GPL licence.

Bottom line: it includes code derived from FreeBSD but doesn't use a complete BSD kernel per se. It also contains code that is also used on Linux distributions (think things like openssh/openssl, the CUPS printing server, some drivers, the command line shells...) but it doesn't run a Linux kernel either. That's the great thing of free (as in freedom, not free beer) softwares. It ends up in your desktop OS, on your phone, router, watch, fridge or toaster. From the lowest end to the top5 supercalculators.

[sk_tle]

What about Android x MacOS? I just got an Android based phone and deciding between an Iphone x android gave me a headache. I would like to hop on Icloud all the time to get cozy w/ my files but didn´t feel paying 3x for an Iphone 6.

I've used both over the years and I can say both OS / UI have their pros and cons without a real winner.

The iphone works very well in an apple ecosystem, not so much if you are mixing devices/computers from different vendors. One example : last time I checked I couldn't share file using bluetooth from my private android phone to my company's iphone 5. The iphone just refuse to pair with them. It is not a technical issue but a business strategy from Apple : locking the user into an apple only world. One good thing of Apple : since there is only one vendor selling both hardware and software you can expect a better support meaning your iphone will get security updates for a few years.

Android : You can't judge android on it's own a it is only an operating system. Under the same version of the OS some smartphones/tablet will run great, other less so. Some will be shipped with a firmware which includes tons of unwanted apps you can't uninstall without flashing it with a third party firmware (which I wouldn't advise to non techies). Two big issues :

1. The playstore is often plagued with apps from dubious source. You can't just install an app and feel secure. You have to crosscheck between playstore popularity, reputation of the developper/company behind it and external source to be sure you won't install crapware on your smartphone. I tend to prefer the UI on android based phones.

2. You rely on the smartphone vendor for security updates. Some will offer no firmware updates or only a handful of months. Other (Motorola, Google) will offer upgrade to new firmwares for several years. This is a big security issue to me. If you want to use Android phones and do not replace our phone every 3 months, choose a vendor that is quick to provide updates and does so for a long time. To address this, google has separated many android features/subsystem from the firmware so it can be upgraded by the playstore. This is way better than it was 3 or 4 years ago but I'm still not happy how some vendor just release models but don't provide any support in the long term.

[colker]

I've used both over the years and I can say both OS / UI have their pros and cons without a real winner.

The iphone works very well in an apple ecosystem, not so much if you are mixing devices/computers from different vendors. One example : last time I checked I couldn't share file using bluetooth from my private android phone to my company's iphone 5. The iphone just refuse to pair with them. It is not a technical issue but a business strategy from Apple : locking the user into an apple only world. One good thing of Apple : since there is only one vendor selling both hardware and software you can expect a better support meaning your iphone will get security updates for a few years.

Android : You can't judge android on it's own a it is only an operating system. Under the same version of the OS some smartphones/tablet will run great, other less so. Some will be shipped with a firmware which includes tons of unwanted apps you can't uninstall without flashing it with a third party firmware (which I wouldn't advise to non techies). Two big issues :

1. The playstore is often plagued with apps from dubious source. You can't just install an app and feel secure. You have to crosscheck between playstore popularity, reputation of the developper/company behind it and external source to be sure you won't install crapware on your smartphone. I tend to prefer the UI on android based phones.

2. You rely on the smartphone vendor for security updates. Some will offer no firmware updates or only a handful of months. Other (Motorola, Google) will offer upgrade to new firmwares for several years. This is a big security issue to me. If you want to use Android phones and do not replace our phone every 3 months, choose a vendor that is quick to provide updates and does so for a long time. To address this, google has separated many android features/subsystem from the firmware so it can be upgraded by the playstore. This is way better than it was 3 or 4 years ago but I'm still not happy how some vendor just release models but don't provide any support in the long term.

I ended w/ a MOtorola.. it's ok. A bit temperamental but ok. I just don't feel safe to give it access to my back ups for the exact reasons you describe and i will probably get an Iphone 6 or 7 in the short run.

[murphy]

As a unix system engineer it pains me to read this.

You are both wrong. Mac OS X is not based on a Unix kernel and there is no such thing as a "BSD" version of Unix.

A quick history :

1969 Unix is created in 1969 by Ken Thompson at Bell laboratories

1977 the Berkeley Software Distribution, or BSD started as a set of addons tools for the Unix version 6. Unix was originally an operating system but was later a brand and an specification. Any operating system following that spec can be considered a unix or unix-like OS.

Over the years the Berkeley Software Distribution was expanded with the rewriting of all the original Unix proprietary code as some was owned by companies such as AT&T (foreshadowing) which involved payment of licences. It evolved a lot and the codes were forked several time. Nowadays the most popular flavours are FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD and DragonflyBSD. They are all great operating systems. BSD is also a type of software licence. Basically those licences grants you the rights to modify the code and redistribute it under whatever conditions you want as long as you credits the original authors.

I'll leave out most proprietary unix flavors to focus on BSD, Linux and MacOS X.

In 1983 Richard Stallman founded the GNU (Gnu is Not Unix) Project whose goal was to create free (think copyleft) a unix operating system. Both BSD and GPL (the licence mainly used by the gnu project) licences grants the user rights to read, reuse and modify the code but the GPL adds restrictions that prevent the code and its evolutions from being relicensed with more restrictive terms and become proprietary in the process. One thing to know is code from the BSD licence can be relicenced under the GPL licence but the opposite is not true. The project initially wanted to use its own kernel (Hurd) but developpment of the kernel was a bit slow comparatively to the other parts of the operating system (forshadowing again).

1985 Steve Jobs is ousted from Apple and found Next computer which build in the late 80's the Nextstep operating system. It was a unix proprietary OS which combined a mach microkernel, a BSD userland (think basic command line tools), the Objective-C language and a great toolkit to build apps. This is really the base of what is now Mac OS X.

At around the same time Andrew Tanenbaum created the Minix (think "Mini Unix") Operating System.

In 1991, Linus Torvalds published the first version of the Linux Kernel under the GPL licence. At the time of his writing the Minix OS was only 16-bit and didn't worked great on the cheap, newer and popular intel 386pc while the Linux Kernel was written for it. This is one of the reason it became quickly popular in the hobbyist world. There were many other propietary unixes such as SunOS, AIX or HP-UX but most of them weren't free or ran on much more expensive machines. Since Linux was only a kernel and needed some other code to be usable, it was quickly shipped as part of software distributions (the different flavours of Linux, think redhat, debian, ubuntu...) with a mix of code from the Gnu project (and also some BSD code) which is the reason people like Richard Stallman want us to talk about GNU Linux or GNU/Linux operating systems.

In 1992 AT&T sued Berkeley. For a few years the BSD code almost came to a complete halt because of uncertainty on the future of the project. This is another reason the Linux based operating system grew quickly much more popular as industries started to pour money into it.

In 1996 Apple is declining and the Mac platform is outdated. Gil Amelio becomes CEO and he quickly chose to purchase Next bringing both Steve Jobs and the latest concept and code of the Nextstep operating system. Nextstep code becomes nicknamed Rhapsody to integrate some Mac OS concept and a compatibility layer with legacy Mac OS 8 code.

1999 Rhapsody 5.1 is commercialised as the Mac OS X server 1.0 operating system. Nexstep also developped XNU, a hybrid kernel. It is a bit technical but it tries to get the benefits of both a microkernel and a monolithic kernel. Think of the microkernel as something very small that doesn't do a lot of things but rely on small other parts (drivers, network subsystem, filesystems....) that doesn't run with the same
privileges and can but brought up or down without restart of the kernel. It involves overhead. It can be detrimental to performances. Think of monolithic as big thing that does a lot of things but whose bugs can crash the whole thing. Linux is considered as monolithic, its founder calling hybrid kernels as as marketing bullshit. Windows NT kernels (windows servers + Windows Vista and successors) are also considered hybrid as well as dragonflyBSD's kernel. So the XNU hybrid kernel started during the Nextstep era as a hybrid kernel using a Mach 2.5 microkernel and some 4.3BSD code. When Mac OS X was developped it was modified to use a Mach 3 kernel and some BSD code from FreeBSD. The FreeBSD code include the POSIX API, many network protocols, the security policies (user/groups/permissions,audit), the virtual filesystem code, Unix system V IPC code, some crypto thingies.

Mac OS X (now Mac OS) was launched in 2001. It includes the XNU kernel (mach + some BSD code), some proprietary stuff and software libraries/tools licensed under the GPL licence.

Bottom line: it includes code derived from FreeBSD but doesn't use a complete BSD kernel per se. It also contains code that is also used on Linux distributions (think things like openssh/openssl, the CUPS printing server, some drivers, the command line shells...) but it doesn't run a Linux kernel either. That's the great thing of free (as in freedom, not free beer) softwares. It ends up in your desktop OS, on your phone, router, watch, fridge or toaster. From the lowest end to the top5 supercalculators.

I have no problem bowing before your superior Unix and Linux knowledge especially since half of that history happened before I was born. Did you do graduate work around Unix or Linux or is it just a passion/hobby for you? Because I know tons of system engineers that don't display that level of Unix/Linux history knowledge.

[sk_tle]

I was born in 1980 !

I didn't really study anything unix related despite using some sun workstations and learning computer languages (the scope was robotics back then) on a QNX realtime unix platform. I just got more interested in the unix world when I installed a linux system in a desperate attempt to bring back life to an old computer and realised thoses systems were easy to understand/modify/hack. When I entered the IT field I just listened a lot to my older colleagues then did my own research out of personnal interest and to understand where we come from, why some technologies were dropped despite looking technically great or the opposite.