Trangender & Sports

[dgaddis]

I figure vSalon is likely the only place this discussion can happen in a respectful way...prove me right. Let me also state that this is not a topic I know much about, so if I mix up any terminology or anything it's genuine ignorance and I don't mean any offense.

Transgender people and sports - how do you think that should work out?

A female fried of mine has recently started road racing, she's only done two or three races so far, and she's raced against two different men transitioning to become women. My gut reaction says they shouldn't be allowed to compete against women. Generally speaking men are stronger than women, which is why the sexes are split in the first place (...right?). Cycling is a sport where strength matters, it's not like we're talking about billiards or bowling (which shouldn't be split IMO).

What about women transitioning to become men? They're taking testosterone which is a performance enhancing drug (....right?), so should they be allowed to compete against either sex?

If I think too hard about any of this I end up with the conclusion that it's all amatuer sports, a game essentially, that doesn't really matter, so who cares. But I know a LOT of people really do care and it means a lot to them. If I were strong enough to podium (against either sex...) maybe I'd care too haha.

[nate2351]

I think we should be proud that somewhere down the line a transgender child felt safe enough to become an athlete instead of more unfortunate routes.

Our sport should not turn away athletes who just want a chance. I think this is an immensely complicated issue and we need to remember that at the end of the day being able to purse sport is a very privileged thing to be able to do compared to the majority of the world. I've competed with transgender athletes before and I can tell you it was still just bike racing.

[e-RICHIE]

Is this about the female high school wrestler in Texas who was on NPR yesterday?

Regardless, the amount of testosterone they are taking isn't a dose large enough to matter, or even test positive for.

[christian]

People should be allowed to compete based on what gender they identify as.

[EightySixer]

I have a friend who is transitioning female to male and races against females. I never paid it much mind though I hadn't ever thought about testosterone therapy and any advantages it may produce. I am not familiar with any kind of enhancement supplements like EPO, HGH or Anabolic etc. I would be interested to see replies from people who do know the performance effects.

I have mixed emotions about naturally born men racing against women. Amateur or not, that is besides the point as far as I am concerned. I have many friends whom have dedicated their finance, free time, otherwise social life and basically the whole picket fence American Dream type life to peruse their personal athletic dreams, which for them is racing.

Take the Boston Qualifying times as an example; (35-39) is 3:10:00 for men and 3:40:00 for women. That is a drastic difference, and yet no 3:09:00 marathoner is winning a darn thing, but it is an enormous achievement for many of those that do it. A lifetime achievement even.

Very tricky topic indeed.

[Dave]

I would have zero problem with men transitioning to being a woman or vice versa participating in sports with the exception of fighting. There is/was a transgender MMA fighter (man to woman) and that bothers me, but it could also be the mental block of how much changes when one goes through the change. Yeah, I comprehend that when you change so much alters in physiology, but something about a man becoming a woman and then fighting other women just irks me. I have zero problems with MMA for either gender, I just don't care much for that aspect.

With regards to cycling I often think of Molly Cameron and the struggles she has had to go through. I think or should I say hope that my willingness to accept would be with out limitations, but I admit I might have to unlearn some prejudice first. Being an academic my world is so often in the bubble of right and wrong and regardless of the nature versus nurture arguments I don't see anything wrong with it. The difficulty of going through that change both physically and emotionally earns my respect as well as compassion. I don't imagine a person making the change is doing so to win at sports and if it is and they admit to it then well, outlook on life is different then mine so who am I to stand in judgment.

[sk_tle]

Sport != Racing

I welcome anyone to do sport. I think in "recreative" competitions (think cat III to cat V) genders should be mixed as the physiological differences don't show that much compared to other parameters (free time, DNA lottery, work, family duties, etc). At elite level however I think that men, women and transgender people should compete in different categories. It may be sad for them but it's a in the same vein as Oscar Pistorius bionic legs.

[Sizzler]

I don't think this issue is as simple as we would like it to be.

Paving the way for transgender cyclists: The story of Jillian Bearden: https://cyclingtips.com/2016/12/pavi...llian-bearden/

[dgaddis]

Sport != Racing

Good point, thread title should be 'competition', not sport.

[theflashunc]

Its pretty simple for my mind, compete with the gender you identify as. If someone's transitioning, race however they want. That's kind of a tough thing to hide if you're doing it for less than genuine reasons.

[andrew flowers]

There are subsets of hyper androgynous women who have far higher levels of useable (the key here) testosterone than any transitioning persons. Although very rare, there are a few examples in elite middle distance runners who crush their competition.

This aside is intended to show the issue of transgender athletes is a non issue, and making it one makes an already perilous transition even harder. Sport is an escape from real life for most people, keep it that way.

[Sizzler]

Here's a quote from that article I just linked to, again not so simple:

“I’m sure [Bearden] had a rough go at it. It’s very difficult to be transgender. But [when it comes to racing] it’s problematic to me that she [transitioned] only a couple years ago, and has lived 30 years as a man. Regardless of testosterone levels, she’s got muscle memory and a lung capacity that I could never build up. She was a Cat 1 as a male. I could never match a pro man. How fair is that to her female competitors?”

[Paul Jacobs]

Fell running (hill running or mountain running) has been my main sport for the last 10 years ago. The English female fell running champion for three years was a transgender athlete. It did not turn out well. Lauren Jeska admits attempted murder of former rugby player Ralph Knibbs | Daily Mail Online

[false_aesthetic]

A few questions:

Is there data out there that supports an assertion that trans women are dominant at high levels (pro) of competition?
Are cisgender female athletes injured at a higher rate when they compete agains trans athletes?

[zachateseverything]

Here's a quote from that article I just linked to, again not so simple:

“I’m sure [Bearden] had a rough go at it. It’s very difficult to be transgender. But [when it comes to racing] it’s problematic to me that she [transitioned] only a couple years ago, and has lived 30 years as a man. Regardless of testosterone levels, she’s got muscle memory and a lung capacity that I could never build up. She was a Cat 1 as a male. I could never match a pro man. How fair is that to her female competitors?”

after a year of hormone replacement therapy they lose most of the advantages given to them from being born male.

Here's the NCAA guide on the subject.

NCAA Publications - NCAA Inclusion of Transgender Student-Athletes

[spopepro]

The NCAA guide is actually really good. They were supported by Gender Spectrum (https://www.genderspectrum.org/) who are the people we work with in our school district to deliver professional development and support to teachers, administrators, and parents so that everyone can best support our transgender and intersex kids (which are different, but often intertwined especially when talking about sports). I strongly recommend that you use Gender Spectrum's resources if you have any questions or things you'd like to learn about. They are outstanding, and are not the "touchy-feeley" types that many expect them to be.

Christian has it right--if activities are separated by gender, your stated gender is your gender. People "faking it" are statistically irrelevant, and are never persistent enough to keep it up.

There is one thing, however, that I personally have some issues with. It started when looking at eSports, where there's no gender divisions and shouldn't ever be any. There have only been a couple of top level pro women, like Scarlett in Starcraft, and Remilia in League of Legends. Both are transgender. So in an activity where there shouldn't be gender advantages, there are very, very few women, and the women that have made it are transgender. Something else must be going on. I think those who have transitioned late *do* have the opportunity to exploit advantages in gender segregated activities. If you were living as a man for ~20 years, you can't just refund all the access, support, encouragement, and privilege you received once you start transitioning. It's not even about hormones or physical attributes. It's about never having lived with the BS that women had to when growing up. And those expectations, support, and societal structures are *massively* important. Admittedly, this position could be wrong... but there is definitely some friction between cisgender and transgender women around issues like this for those who transition as adults. You don't see it for people who transition as kids, because they have only ever lived as the gender they identify as, and so there's no material difference in any way in those cases.

[Paul Jacobs]

I have a problem with someone competing as a middle ranking male and then becoming female and dominating the same sport as a female.

[bking]

I'll join the few who seem to be going against the current here. I'm not convinced that inherent or inalienable rights pertain nor should they to sport. Many of us are regularly disappointed when it comes to sports, my vertical leap sucked, and my motocross career just got started too late. For any number of reasons, fair or unfair, we don't make the cut.
I struggled to even watch last summers 800 meter Olympics women's race with Caster Semenya. I felt for the women who had to compete against her, and cannot see how this could right, fair, or a level playing field. Time will tell I suppose, but that race, it wasn't right.

[spopepro]

... Caster Semenya....

It's important to note that Caster is *NOT* transgender. Caster is, and has always been a woman. If you want to start talking about hormone levels, possible intersex conditions and other such stuff, that can be a different debate, but it doesn't have much to do with transgender athletes. The logical conclusion of that particular discussion is group racing by hemocrit, VO2max, and functional testosterone numbers.


P.S. I followed a couple of links, and yeah, the other competitors don't exactly cover themselves in glory here.

"A Polish middle distance runner who finished fifth in the women’s 800m final won by Caster Semenya at the Rio Olympics has claimed she “feels like a silver medallist”. Joanna Jozwik also appeared to controversially claim that she was proud to have finished as the “first European” and the “second white” in the race."

[froze]

BS with the political correctness crap I've read here.

For me it's real simple how where a person can play in sports and what bathroom they may use. Ready? I know some of you are going to find this very difficult to swallow but here it is...if the person in question has male parts that person must participate in male side of the sports, and that person must use a male restroom, and vice a versa if the person is a female. I don't care how or what the person thinks they are if they have the parts, if they don't like that then I suggest they get surgery and have the parts removed and whatever sex parts are needed to convert them the other way installed, and take whatever drugs needed to keep them that way.

It's real simple.

We've already had some high school male who decided to be a female wrestler smash all the female contestants to his run to the state championship...well duh! Most men have superior upper body strength over most women. This particular boy went undefeated the whole season. Transgender boy wins girls' wrestling championship in Texas - CNN.com That girl that had to wrestle him for the state title was devastated by the loss, but she didn't stand a chance. So is this kind of devastation the thing we need to expect for the future of sports in America? Guys who are too weak to take on the boys simply take on the girls and clean up. If anything, if this nonsense is allowed to continue it will end female sports, it will instead be ruled by transgender males. No it won't you say? Really? I think some of you need to rethink this further.

Besides that, if I ever see a man walk into a public women's restroom while my grand daughter is in there I will remove him from the restroom violently after I ask him if he mistaken the women's restroom for the men's. I don't even care if I get arrested or sued, I have a great lawyer with connections all over the country and a very high liability limit so I'll fight the prick again in court as far as he wants to take it. I can hear the bleeding liberals screaming at me for that remark. And if you think you're OK with the risk, which deep down inside I doubt any of you really would want your preteen or teen age girl in the same bathroom with a strange man, but anyway read this: http://www.wnd.com/2016/04/doc-gende...are-dangerous/

That's fine if you want to protect transgender people, but don't let them use the opposite sex public bathrooms, don't let them participate in the opposite sex sports unless they have complete sexual transformation done.

I guess we could always open a new window in sports, male sports, women sports, and transgender sports, that way the transgender can compete against other transgenders, at least that would be fair.