Where do you draw the line?

[ljm]

I recently visited a frame builder and saw on his rack an "interesting" frame awaiting painting. The frame was not his work, but that of another builder, apparently his first... Now, I will not name names, nor post a pick, to protect the innocent! So, a description must suffice.

It was a pretty straightforward disk-ready single speed. Except for holes drilled through all of the tubes except for the headtube. Each hole is roughly 1/3 of the diameter of the tube through which it passes and they're at about 50mm centres, and has a tube brazed into it. The entire frame is chromed, to be largely painted over; in my humble opinion, it looks awful! Horrendous! But aesthetics aside (being a personal choice) the potential for this frame to fail seems significantly higher than something more conventional and yet is heavier and more complex to build that without those holes.

So, where would/have you drawn the line in what you would build?

[Mike Mcdermid]

"where do you draw the line"

Drillium - drilling on racing bicycles

when you max out your tiniest drill bits of course

[EricKeller]

drilling a hole in a frame and filling it with a tube is no problem from a strength perspective. this has been done a lot in the past, particularly with chainstays. I'm guessing the first time builder got the idea from Dave Porter

[ljm]

For a builder of your experience, perhaps that is fine and dandy. But this guy's sold one frame. And it shows. I'm not being mean; the chrome is unforgiving of some sins. So whilst structurally it is theoretically fine, what purpose does it serve? Added to which it added considerably to the work and perhaps complexity of the build, relative to the guy's skills, experience and knowledge.

But in a sense, the point is not the frame which I described, it merely being what triggered my thought process; the builder I was talking to would not build such a thing and it certainly offended my sense of aesthetics and simply made me wonder why.

The point is that I've seen and heard many makers of things (including bikes) say that they will simply make what the customer wants. I don't think it's unreasonable to say those who read these pages are interested in bikes that get you from A to B with some combination of efficiency, comfort, safety and style; as builders, where is the limit beyond which you move so far from your own ideas of what is efficient, comfortable, safe and stylish, that you simply say no?

[Michael Gordon]

drilling a hole in a frame and filling it with a tube is no problem from a strength perspective. this has been done a lot in the past, particularly with chainstays. I'm guessing the first time builder got the idea from Dave Porter

I took this picture of a frame hanging at Tony Tam's shop in Sausalito, CA - A Bicycle Odyssey. It is cool, but looks like it would actually weight more given the tubing inserted into holes. If one was ambitious enough, it would not be too difficult to estimate the difference between a virgin chain stay and the ones drilled on this ride.

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[dogrange]

Those holes look like great places for grime to collect and be a pain to clean out.

[EricKeller]

But in a sense, the point is not the frame which I described, it merely being what triggered my thought process; the builder I was talking to would not build such a thing and it certainly offended my sense of aesthetics and simply made me wonder why.

I like simple bikes, so I wouldn't do such a thing. A builder should think if they really want to be pigeonholed into repeating a particular design element on future builds. My experience is that deviating from the norm should be driven by really good reasons.

[Craig Ryan]

The line is where you make it concerning your own work. You can't control other's, but I turn down paint work when I see it. I don't think Roland is the right example in this thread.

[Mark Kelly]

I took this picture of a frame hanging at Tony Tam's shop in Sausalito, CA - A Bicycle Odyssey. <snip> If one was ambitious enough, it would not be too difficult to estimate the difference between a virgin chain stay and the ones drilled on this ride.

No need to: Roland has been quoted as saying it adds about 20g per stay. The stated purpose is to increase torsional rigidity. Source

[Michael Gordon]

No need to: Roland has been quoted as saying it adds about 20g per stay. The stated purpose is to increase torsional rigidity. Source

Fascinating! I took the picture because it was cool. I couldn't put my finder on what such a design would add... weight, performance, or just coolness factor. Thanks for finding this!

[Jake Rosenfeld]

......and it certainly offended my sense of aesthetics and simply made me wonder why.

Art: Disturbs some. Pleases others.

[zetroc]

Roland has earned the right to do whatever he wants on a bike. The same is not true for every builder.

[EricKeller]

just to make this clear, I think the bike in the picture above looks great. Doing it on every tube sounds silly. But hey, good brazing practice

[Cynikal]

Could be useful when locking up too.

[Jonathan]

Very simply a line should be drawn before you experiment with something that affects the safety of others. Can a new builder braze that well, is the design sound, what about the chrome process and the pipes used? If youre talking about drilling main tubes, were the tubes butted? On the surface these are all thing a new builder likely couldn't pull off. You draw the line because getting it wrong can have consequences for somebody else.

[e-RICHIE]

This just popped into my Twitter/Instgram feed.
Instagram
Is it the culprit in question atmo?

[11.4]

I once had an experimental Masi track frame with cutouts like these on the lower down tube and the chain stay. Whistled like crazy at speed. I finally taped over the holes to avoid the whistle, though I never had to signal "Rail" when coming over the top of anybody on the track.

[Mike Flanigan]

This frame makes me sad. Please stop. They spent no time on the lugs and all their time on drilling holes. Even if this were done right I would not like it.

[e-RICHIE]

Goodman contends the bagel crisis has been ongoing for almost 50 years. “It began in 1963,
when the automatic bagel machine was invented,” he says. “That meant that there was no
longer a need for artisans atmo.”

[Rody]

This frame makes me sad. Please stop. They spent no time on the lugs and all their time on drilling holes. Even if this were done right I would not like it.

What makes me sad is that this frame was built under the guise of a "school" that is suppose to teach fundamentals of safe design and fabrication, but they still cannot orient the front dropouts in the correct plane to prevent disc forces...ugh.

I understand individual aesthetic, desire to experiment, and mistakes during a learning curve, but this is a vehicle intended to be ridden and the instructors have a responsibility to the safety of the end user to insure that the final product is safe.

Too bad.