Talk to me about copper cookware

[spopepro]

Paging coppercook.

Recently while whipping up some red snapper à la grenobloise in the same aluminum pan I've used since I was an undergraduate it occurred to me that I'd enjoy something a little nicer, and that I'm never going to wear out a 6ga aluminum pan designed for high volume kitchen abuse. So, I'd like to upgrade some of my stuff, but my only experience has been in high-volume, low-skill kinds of places (kept my bank account black while in school), and so I got that same stuff for at home and all I've ever used was thick gauge aluminum and a couple of hand-me-down stainless pieces of junk. I have no idea what's good, or what I'd probably like.

I'm leaning towards picking up some tinned copper stuff. Probably a splayed sauce pan and a larger saute pan. My worry is the melting point and durability of tin. The internet seems to be high on opinion and low on fact and experience. I'm no reenactment enthusiast, so if modern stuff outperforms the traditional, let me know. So who's using copper (or something else you're excited about) and what do I need to know?

[echelon_john]

Maybe off-topic, but we've had a lot of cookware, including copper core & full copper.

Hands down, the best $ we've spent on kitchen stuff in the last few years is on the Mauviel 1830 series. We have 8" and 14" skillets, depending whether we're doing two eggs or 8... ; )

It's not non-stick per se, but has developed the best non-stick patina of any cookware we've owned. I'm really blown away by it, and reach for it first every single time unless I need the heat-holding properties of cast iron. And it's cheap enough that you can try it, see for yourself, and give it to me if you don't like it!

Link here:
Mauviel M'steel Carbon Steel Skillet, 8-inch | cutleryandmore.com

[ericpmoss]

I spent a metric shit-ton on several brands and types of copperware. All of the 'serious' stuff is good -- Mauviel, Bourgeat, Brooklyn Copper, Duparquet, etc, but some pieces stand out.

The tin-lined is certainly efficient heat-wise, but I had a sauce pan need re-tinning twice in a year just from maybe salt or maybe tomato -- though I never leave food in it, and NEVER let it boil dry. I won't buy any more of it because there are some stainless-lined copper pots and pans that are just too good to put up with the tin hassle.

Here are my favorites (though since I don't eat meat, I can't say much about stock pots:

BOURGEAT COPPER FLARED SAUTE PAN WITH LID | Matfer Bourgeat USA baking utensils There is literally nothing I can say negative about this thing. Glorious.

ANY Atelier du Cuivre stainless-lined sauce pan. They don't have nice pouring lips, BUT, there are no internal rivets. The small one is the best thing in the world for caramelizing sugar, making oatmeal, or making one serving of a sauce. And if you want to sear meat, their silver-lined pans let you get to brutal temps very quickly. They also have detachable handles and rivet-less interiors. Except for the one Bourgeat pan, I'd gladly toss anything else I own to get more of the Atelier silver or stainless lined copper.

[spopepro]

I spent a metric shit-ton on several brands and types of copperware. All of the 'serious' stuff is good -- Mauviel, Bourgeat, Brooklyn Copper, Duparquet, etc, but some pieces stand out.

The tin-lined is certainly efficient heat-wise, but I had a sauce pan need re-tinning twice in a year just from maybe salt or maybe tomato -- though I never leave food in it, and NEVER let it boil dry. I won't buy any more of it because there are some stainless-lined copper pots and pans that are just too good to put up with the tin hassle.

Here are my favorites (though since I don't eat meat, I can't say much about stock pots:

BOURGEAT COPPER FLARED SAUTE PAN WITH LID | Matfer Bourgeat USA baking utensils There is literally nothing I can say negative about this thing. Glorious.

ANY Atelier du Cuivre stainless-lined sauce pan. They don't have nice pouring lips, BUT, there are no internal rivets. The small one is the best thing in the world for caramelizing sugar, making oatmeal, or making one serving of a sauce. And if you want to sear meat, their silver-lined pans let you get to brutal temps very quickly. They also have detachable handles and rivet-less interiors. Except for the one Bourgeat pan, I'd gladly toss anything else I own to get more of the Atelier silver or stainless lined copper.

Have you used the silver? It makes perfect sense in a lot of ways for the purpose, but I wonder slightly about something that reactive.

[UnfilteredDregs]

My Mauviel M'Heritage M250C is the absolute Ferrari of all my pans...nothing seemingly gets as hot, as quickly, and reacts to changes of the heat as fast...simply superb. Treat yourself to one...

On another note do not overlook De'Buyer Carbon Steel Pans...they require a more careful care & use regimen but cook easily as well as the best copper at a fraction of the cost. They are my go to day to day pans.

Welcome to de Buyer | de Buyer

[Cookietruck]

the de buyer carbon steel pans are basically what you would use instead of cast iron, also, it is a very heavy pan.
i don't use our cast iron much at all since getting a large debuyer carbon steel pan. i much prefer the sloped sides of the debuyer over my vintage stuff because i can flip stuff in the debuyer whereas i have to stir stuff in the cast iron...

we recently bought two all clad stainless skillets, french style. they are pretty awesome...when i started typing this i was thinking they were copper core, but after lookin them up i see they are aluminium and stainless coore...they still get very hot, and heat and cool quick so i will leave this...
All-Clad d5 Stainless-Steel French Skillets | Williams-Sonoma

[big shanty]

I have an assortment of the Mauviel m250c/b stuff and have never, ever regretted buying a piece. Don't futz around with tinned stuff, complete waste of time. The m250 stainless lining is the highest-quality stainless steel surface I've seen in any cookware. That includes all "professional" and home-use brands. In fact the stainless used in Mauviel's all stainless "M'cook" line is inferior (still nice pans though). Bottom line is that any 2.5 mm Mauviel items you buy, you will likely use the crap out of them. If you are unsure of what you want before dropping the dough, getting a similar item from their 100% stainless M'cook line as a tester is not a bad or particularly expensive (it's all relative) way to go. You'll likely end up using the stainless pan for the next 25 years.

I also highly recommend Mauviel's black steel pans. They are awesome and you can't beat the price.

Chefsresource.com has inconsistent inventory of m250c items but you can usually get 20% off (most recent coupon code was COOK20) when they actually have some stuff available to buy. cutleryandmore.com usually has deals on a few oddball m250c items that are cheaper than you can find elsewhere. Recently got a 2.1 quart windsor pan from them for a good price. If all else fails go to Mauviel USA and pay full crack; Generally speaking the best price you can find on Amazon corresponds to the price on Mauviel's website.

[Too Tall]

Suppose I found a screaming deal on a Mauviel stock pot. Best practice to use only for soups/stews/stock or could it do double duty for beans and such?

[ericpmoss]

Have you used the silver? It makes perfect sense in a lot of ways for the purpose, but I wonder slightly about something that reactive.

Yes. Sadly it loses the beauty after the first use, but it's still great for the sear -- the silver doesn't chip off like the tin can. It is far from non-stick, but does ok (as in way better than All Clad stainless) as long as there is a film of oil. At least there's no need for a sea of oil. It's a no-go on induction, ok on electric, but really meant for gas -- the pans come perfectly flat on the bottom, but after all the heating cycles, it can end up not contacting all the coils evenly. The main things to avoid are acid (e.g tomato sauce) and metal utensils. The tomatos just discolor it, but the metal to metal leaves scratches that you can feel. Stick with wood and nylon or silicone spatulas and silicone-covered tongs for turning meat.

[spopepro]

So here's the thing I don't understand: why is stainless inside of copper a thing? Yeah, copper is very conductive, but steel isn't. Yes, you can make steel thin, but there's limits. To the best that I can tell, the thinnest lining you can get without risking deformation is around .5mm. So thermodynamics aren't my thing, but if my math is right: assuming a surface area of .0615 sq m (nominal 28cm diameter circle), and a thickness of .5mm, stainless has a conductivity factor of around 18 W/mC, which means that for 1 degree C temperature difference between hot and cold sides, it's transferring 1230 watts. My 6ga aluminum (4.115mm) with a factor of 220 is moving 1826 W.

Sure, stainless lined copper is better than the primarily stainless stuff, but it seems like it doesn't outperform aluminum, and is a bit of a waste of the copper. Looks good though.

[summilux]

I've been using a set of Baumalu copper pots and pans for 5 years now. For cooking performance, copper stuff can't be beat. The interior tin surface is soft so you can't use metal utensils. I cheat on this when I fry eggs since I have not found a non-metal spatula that is any good at egg lifting/flipping. The tin surface is now beginning to wear out on my most used pots so I'll need to get them retinned.

I don't use the copper pots for everything. Copper excels for cooking where you want to change the cooking temperature rapidly, liking frying an egg, making a sauce. I find that bacon sticks to the tin so I use cast iron for that. Low and slow things (stews, beans) go in a cast iron pot. I don't think that a copper stock pot would be useful except for show.

The only downside to copper is that it will turn ugly the first time you use it and this patina will continue to get darker and splotchier until you clean it. I don't mind that. I love my set.

[caleb]

Loving this thread, and I hope I can add a Mauviel stainless question without derailing the discussion too much.

I need a big saute pan with a lid, and the Mauviel M'Cook stuff looks like a good option. The copper stuff looks awesome, but $710 for the copper saute pan an lid is just a bit too steep, and I figure the stainless version will do the job. I'm thinking about picking up this one with this lid.

The only option for getting an 11" saute pan and lid without the "helper handle" is to get cast iron handles on both the pan and the lid. Are there advantages or disadvantages to the cast iron handles? If it matters, I'm planning to use this pan both on the stovetop and in the oven.

[UnfilteredDregs]

So here's the thing I don't understand: why is stainless inside of copper a thing?

Sure, stainless lined copper is better than the primarily stainless stuff, but it seems like it doesn't outperform aluminum, and is a bit of a waste of the copper. Looks good though.

You got me but, the performance speaks for itself...It's 2mm copper and I don't think the steel is even close to .5mm:

(My pan looks like it's been through a war...lmao) The steel is the innermost thin band-

[ericpmoss]

So here's the thing I don't understand: why is stainless inside of copper a thing? [...]
Sure, stainless lined copper is better than the primarily stainless stuff, but it seems like it doesn't outperform aluminum, and is a bit of a waste of the copper. Looks good though.

It only begins to make sense with extremely thin stainless, which as you say, doesn't provide much structure. With the Atelier stuff, it's 3mm copper (or so) and 0.1mm stainless. So the conductivity is worse than copper+zinc, but I've never noticed it being slow to heat. I don't bang pans around anyway, but at least the small sauce pans seem plenty stout. I *love* them.

[spopepro]

It only begins to make sense with extremely thin stainless, which as you say, doesn't provide much structure. With the Atelier stuff, it's 3mm copper (or so) and 0.1mm stainless. So the conductivity is worse than copper+zinc, but I've never noticed it being slow to heat. I don't bang pans around anyway, but at least the small sauce pans seem plenty stout. I *love* them.

Yes, and actually those numbers make sense if that's indeed the thickness. 3mm of copper will conduct the same amount of heat energy as .13mm of stainless give or take a little depending on the temperature of both materials and specific alloy. So that specific combo is right on the money.

As it turns out, I put an order in for a saute and sauce pan. Copper with silver lining. But not from any maker mentioned in this thread... they are en route now and I'm excited to give them a spin.

[Too Tall]

Full report or else ;)

Yes, and actually those numbers make sense if that's indeed the thickness. 3mm of copper will conduct the same amount of heat energy as .13mm of stainless give or take a little depending on the temperature of both materials and specific alloy. So that specific combo is right on the money.

As it turns out, I put an order in for a saute and sauce pan. Copper with silver lining. But not from any maker mentioned in this thread... they are en route now and I'm excited to give them a spin.

[dogrange]

I've got several pieces of the upscale Mauviel 3mm (or whatever the thick version is) copper with a very thin stainless interior. A couple frying pans with lids and a couple saucepans. The stainless interior is nowhere near 1mm, I can't measure, but it must be more like .1-.2 mm. My wife and I are not super sophisticated cooks, but these things do heat up and cool down in a great way, are basically non-stick because you can actually control the heat on them and the steel interior was deemed important to us as it is much lower maintenance than the tin-lined stuff (or so I'm told). It's pretty expensive, but we got some sort of good deal a few years ago on Williams Sonoma site or somewhere like that, so deals are out there to be had.

[spopepro]

The story goes: I was intrigued by the mention of the atlier du cuivre silver lined stuff. Silver conducts heat even better than copper, is mostly non-reactive, and should be much more durable than tin. I was trying to do research to find out what the details were about silver as a cooking surface (spoiler: there is almost no credible information out there) and I came across another company making silver lined copper cookware... in Turkey. Now, as a musician, I have a ton of respect for the copper alloy works in Istanbul and the company seems to use knowledgeable labor and pay them well. I liked the hammered finish, the sculpting of the cast bronze handle and the slightly flared edge. The company is Soy Turkiye: http://www.soy.com.tr Kuku sazbi is the plan for tonight.

[Too Tall]

Friggin' gorgeous pans.

[Noteddy]

If Campagnolo made cookware...

It would cost more than those. Nice stuff.