Frame builder boom

[Curt Goodrich]

Perhaps you've noticed? It seems one can't swing a mouse without hitting a new frame builder's website. It appears the market has grown for the hand built segment of the bike industry. That's cool and certainly I've benefitted from that. But there's something that bugs me about this boom. It seems to me many have entered into the frame building biz way too quickly. Historically folks came up through the ranks whether through a production shop or a job shop or through an apprenticeship or some combination of those. But now it seems one makes a frame, gets a website and voila... they're living the dream! The internet is full of bike forums some of which are focused on frame building. Folks can ask questions and that's awesome. These forums have helped to dispense advice and I would never argue that this is a bad thing. What happens a lot on these forums that I find disturbing though is when a very basic question is asked by someone that already has a website that touts one's abilities to produce works of art or some other crap like that. Perhaps I'm too close to the situation to look at it objectively but I don't see this sort of thing happening in other industries. Do electricians have a forum where they can ask the difference between amperage and voltage? Do accountants have a forum to ask about debits and credits? Not that I know of. I don't have a solution but I have a feeling the frame builder boom will produce a large supply of used building equipment for sale in the future. Also I think the boom has the potential for giving established builders more credibility or it could give the hand built segment of the bike industry a black eye. Either way I find the growth in number of builders going into business before having a rudimentary mastery of the basics difficult to stomach. I don't really have a question for anyone. I guess I just needed to get that off my chest amongst friends.

[swoop]

http://www.electriciantalk.com/

the interweb castes a long dark shadow. its in every freaking field. ugh.
http://www.tv.com/dr.-phil/show/13551/forums.html
http://herpes-coldsores.com/messageforum/
http://www.houseofthin.com/
http://www.terrylove.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=6

[e-RICHIE]

there's no boom in framebuilding atmo; there's a boom in wanting
to say you're a framebuilder. well, i'm off to the coffin circuit now.
lord knows what will be here in 72 minutes atmo.

[GrantM]

Being a builder has got to be tough.
Besides being an expert at the construction of frames,
Lets see how many other job 'hats' the builder has to wear:

bike fitter
customer service rep
small business manager/planner
parts ordering
marketing
accountant
receptionist
cleaning staff

not to mention:
mindreader
psychologist
bestest friend

it's endless...

-g

[Curt Goodrich]

there's no boom in framebuilding atmo; there's a boom in wanting
to say you're a framebuilder. well, i'm off to the coffin circuit now.
lord knows what will be here in 72 minutes atmo.

Excellant point although there's a lot of folks postering themselves to the market as builders.

[Shinomaster]

There is a forum for potters called clayart. Pottery can be wicked complicated.

[mschol17]

I think that the internet has not only raised the profile of established builders, but provided people with enough information to be dangerous. People think "that looks like fun" without realizing how much work it is. It's easy to put together a flashy website and before you know it you have customers.

I think the ongoing question is how a new framebuilder is going to get started? Unless you're someone like Dave Kirk or Dave Wages or K. Bedford and you've worked at a larger production place like Waterford, IF, or Serotta, where are you going to learn in the same way R. Sachs and P. Weigle, et. al learned? Are you going to go to China/Taiwan and work in a factory there? It would be one thing if the established framebuilders were taking in apprentices, but I get the sense that they work alone because they're perfectionists and they're busy enough without showing some idiot how to use a file.

[swoop]

the world needs informed customers!

[mschol17]

the world needs informed customers!

Of course swoop is right and the obvious choice is only to purchase from the "masters." Otherwise, you know you're taking a risk, the whole cost-benefit nonsense, etc....

[Shinomaster]

Come to Bubbleville.

[GrantM]

Excellant point although there's a lot of folks postering themselves to the market as builders.

Maybe soon, there will be a point when investment raises the bar,
and some of the really qualified guys could increase production to the
point it would have an effect on the length of the waiting lists.

Some clients must be "settling" for something other than their top picks
because of the either the wait or the cost. These are things the market
usually addresses. Obviously there is a bottle neck right now, and if
the demand really is sustained over time, it's going to be possible for the
talented guys like yourself and others to grow the business.

It seems to me that the "business" side the job is just as complicated as
the product side...

-g

[Paradise]

Curt:

I hear where you are coming from. I love bicycles as works of art and am not really into seeing or noticing every new framebuilder that sets up shop, or keeping track for that matter.

I would ask yourself, are you satisfied with your work and feel fairly compensated for your expertise and time? Do you feel that you are "sufficiently busy" or have a adequate number of orders to keep you going for the next 3-6 months? If so, than I wouldn't worry about others crowding your space. Of course, you're entitled to your opinion, however to me it did come off as venting.

Another thought on this topic, I truly think it is plausible to assume that people are jumping into frame building because now that have an annual audience at the annual bike show that's been held these past few years. Where else do 1000's of enthusiast gather to salivate on the incredible work of all of these craftsmen?

Regarding your questions about accountants or electricians and their websites, there are definitely sites that answer peoples questions. I'm a CFO and member of a network called the FENG, Financial Exectutives Networking Group. Many questions are answered on their site or in their nightly newsletter. Of course there's also the AICPA (Am Ins.Of CPA's) and they do the same I'm sure. For electricians or home electricians there are all kinds of blogs that take and answer questions. One of the beauties of the web is sharing of our collective wisdom.

Just my 2 cents.

Bob

[Shinomaster]

Cream rises to the top. The lumps will sink to the bottom.

[M_A_Martin]

Yeah, but some of the very experienced guys who I would want to build me a bike don't have the wait lists they deserve. How long do you have to wait for a Kirk? How about a Llewellyn? Neither of these experienced builders have wait lists near as long as they should be for the quality of work they put out. (I don't know where Curt or Peter W's wait list sits, and Richard has closed his to new customers...Yay for Richard!)



"What happens a lot on these forums that I find disturbing though is when a very basic question is asked by someone that already has a website that touts one's abilities to produce works of art or some other crap like that."

How about when one of these new builders posts up on their own blog that they're so excited that they just learned something that they should have known LONG before they started building bikes to be sold to the public? And their bikes REALLY suck in design and/or execution and they have a waiting list longer than an experienced builder who builds beautiful, balanced bikes???




Shino...after a long time away I've been working with porcelain again...talk about a steep learning curve...talk about temperamental...my ideas and the clay's ideas are very different...but I'm relearning lots of stuff...and gaining a huge appreciation for those who went before that had slipped away from me over time.

[Mabouya]

There truly will be a boom in framebuilder web sites when Chris Kvale has one...

[old_school]

I have been noticing this phenomenon for awhile now, thinking that it has to frost the ass of the industry vets. A little lipstick, powder and paint with a healthy dose of BS goes a long way with a good number of people. Framebuilding isn't alone though: think of the chef who has been sweating his balls off in the kitchen for some 30 years only to turn on the TV and see some "celebrity chef" who can't hold a knife making millions with shoddy technique and a bright smile.

No answers ... but I hear you.

[acotts]

The cream will rise.

[swoop]

peas make good soup.

[Dave Kirk]

I hear you Curt.

I see the issue as twofold.

1) the new builder THINKS he knows enough to hang their own shingle because he doesn't know what he doesn't know. "Ignorance is bliss" is a bit too strong a phrase but it's in the right direction.

2) Average folks (potential customers) now have no idea what it takes to make things. Our fathers most likely knew how to fix and make simple things and certainly had an appreciation for how fine things were made. Flash forward to the now when many folks don't know what end of the screw driver to hold onto. These folks are average now. They have their own "ignorance is bliss" deal going on and have no knowledge or curiosity of how much skill one needs to make something and how long it takes to attain that skill. So they look for flash and bling and all that. They often think that having the full Anvil frame building kit is all one needs to pop out some world class work.



When you combine ignorance on both sides with a lack of curiosity on the customer side you get folks plunking down their hard earned cash for the third frame some framebuilding school grad put together.

It's true that someone new to the biz would have a hard time finding a place to learn and build enough to be ready to go out on their own if they are building lugged or fillet bikes. But for tigged steel or aluminum and carbon there is no better time to learn than now. When I learned to build there was no way to learn these things but now it's easy. One does need to sacrifice to learn however and look for a job and move to where it is and buck up and empty their cup and learn. It feels like there is an expectation at this point that one can learn a hand skill via the internet while keeping their day job. This seems like a new thing to me. I never would have dreamed that I could learn to build over the phone but that is in essence what seems to be happening now.

I think that if/when the customers become more discriminating and curious that this situation might take care of itself. The market would speak. I worry that it won't happen and that the handbuilt business as a whole could get a bad name due to the product being produced during the learning curve.

In the end I don't think that the established guys need to worry. There is a small group of customers who understand what they are paying for and will continue to do so. As long as the phone keeps ringing I'll keep building. After that I hope it snows a lot.

dave

[imike]

there's no boom in framebuilding atmo; there's a boom in wanting
to say you're a framebuilder. well, i'm off to the coffin circuit now.
lord knows what will be here in 72 minutes atmo.

I'm still just as pale and you are undoubtedly just that much darker.