out of interest

[Mike Mcdermid]

How many of the US builders studied their craft in England...just curious really

[steve garro]

Ross Schafer for a while, as I recall.
- Garro.

[zetroc]

Does Dave Moulton count?

[e-RICHIE]

I was there. But it was anything but study or studying. It wasn't an apprenticeship either, in case that word comes up atmo.

[Doug Fattic]

I did in 1975. I went to Ellis-Briggs in Shipley, West Yorkshire (near Bradford and Leeds in the northeast industrial triangle of England for those that aren't into geography). Fellow Michigander Matt Assenmacher went to Bob Jackson in Leeds a couple of years before I did. He has a retail store in Swartz Creek, Michigan but still makes and paints frames. Peter Mooney studied under Ron Cooper in '76 or so. Jeff Lyons is an American that lived and built in England for some time and learned from Bill Philbrook. McLean Fonvielle built under the name Silk Hope in North Carolina and apprenticed at Holdsworthy under the direction of Roy Thame. He passed away when he was only 29. Bill Boston in New Jersey did an extended vacation trip in England and visited several framebuilders to find out what he could. He spent spent a few days or a week (I don't know how long) at Harry Quinn in Liverpool. I know he also talked to Johnny Berry in Manchester. Jim Redcay and Tom Kellogg have building roots that go back to Bill. David Howard a racer from Long Beach, CA apprenticed during the summer of '72 with Johnny Berry. Sadly he committed suicide in '79. Peter Weigle's time at Holdsworth overlapped Richard Sach's. Somebody will have to educate me on when and where Ben Serotta learned. I kinda know but not exactly enough to put it in cyberspace forever. Steve Bilenky got some training sometime someplace in England. I'm sure there are more but that is what I can think of off of the top of my head.

When the bike boom started in the States in the late '60s and early '70s the American builders that had made 6 day racer frames before WWII had died off or retired. Mostly only kids rode bicycles after the war and before the boom. In my home town of Niles Michigan there was a bicycle builder who gold or silver plated lugs just before and after the start of the 20th century. As Americans turned entirely to cars this knowledge got totally lost.

I was a high school teacher in the early 70's and with summers free in '73 and '74 I visited many British builders with a Brit rail pass looking for the right place to learn. I was very fortunate for Jack Briggs to teach me. His 10 employee bicycle business (showroom, pro shop, repairs, repaints as well as frame shop) didn't need his constant attention so he had time to show me the ropes. Andrew the young framebuilder when I was there still builds frames for them. Jack learned from his father starting in 1938. While I was there and also later I visited more British builders like the Quinn and Taylor brothers and Bill Hurlow among others. It was a pretty closed mouth group because of all the competition but they said they would speak to me because I was an American and they wouldn't be giving secrets away to their competitors. There isn't a week that goes by that I'm not thankful for the good start Briggs and to a much lesser extent other British builders gave me. I've returned the favor a little as 4 or 5 of my framebuilding class students have come from the UK.

[Mike Mcdermid]

Wow that's quite a history Doug thanks for sharing i only met bob jackson once and even though im 20 miles from leeds it was actually at interbike in 95 when i discovered the custom builds . Richard are you saying your time here was non bike related?

anothe just out of interest where will i find out the history of Waterford ...tia

[e-RICHIE]

Richard are you saying your time here was non bike related?

No - I am saying that it wasn't an apprenticeship, a mentor-ship, or learning situation of any kind. I stayed as long as I could until the money I had with me ran out. By the time I was building frames commercially in Connecticut, very little of the sandwich runs, the boxing up of bicycles, the filing of dropouts, or the tea making found their ways into my routine. I had a wonderful experience and have life-long memories. But I was not in an arena in which instruction was a daily component.

[Eric Estlund]

I had a wonderful experience and have life-long memories. But I was not in an arena in which instruction was a daily component.

I came out of a US shop, but I can't imagine daily instruction being part of the job outside of the inital- "your station is here, your manual is there" situation. In my experience it was pretty much up to me to get self taught fast enough to take parts from one person and provide parts to another.

Re: the original question, I'd think there is probably a handful or so frame builders going now who got some sort of start in the UK in the 70's. Richard, Doug, Peter Weigle and Jeff Lyon all come to mind. Andy Newlands went to England to race, but I don't think he built frames until he got back to Portland. According to the MOMBAT site, Ross was only there for a few months, and mostly after learning how to build frames at home. Others?

[EricKeller]

Trek sold the 4th frame I ever built